community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
Pittsburgh Protests War
by Bradford L Yankiver
Monday, Mar. 03, 2003 at 3:29 AM
levven@excite.com
Photos from the unpermitted march through oakland on Sunday, March 2, 2003.
marchonforbes.jpg, image/jpeg, 514x800
March on Fifth Ave
by Bradford L Yankiver
Monday, Mar. 03, 2003 at 3:29 AM
levven@excite.com
marchonfifth.jpg, image/jpeg, 800x600
Police tried to stop protesters from walking up fifth ave without any success.
Confrontation
by Bradford L Yankiver
Monday, Mar. 03, 2003 at 3:29 AM
levven@excite.com
confontation.jpg, image/jpeg, 800x600
Police order protesters to not to march up fifth avenue.
Big Sticks
by Bradford L Yankiver
Monday, Mar. 03, 2003 at 3:29 AM
levven@excite.com
followedbycops.jpg, image/jpeg, 800x600
A CMU student is unintimidated as he is closely followed by two police officers.
Cathedral
by Bradford L Yankiver
Monday, Mar. 03, 2003 at 3:29 AM
levven@excite.com
peaceflag.jpg, image/jpeg, 600x800
No Blood for Oil
by Bradford L Yankiver
Monday, Mar. 03, 2003 at 3:29 AM
levven@excite.com
nobloodforoil.jpg, image/jpeg, 800x600
Peace Agreement
by Bradford L Yankiver
Monday, Mar. 03, 2003 at 3:29 AM
levven@excite.com
peaceagreement.jpg, image/jpeg, 800x600
A motorist show his support for the peace movement, happy to wait in traffic as the message is spread.
Stop All War
by Bradford L Yankiver
Monday, Mar. 03, 2003 at 3:29 AM
levven@excite.com
stopallwar.jpg, image/jpeg, 800x600
Protesters march with a solid front wall up Forbes Ave.
Dumb college kids
by Dave ZXavetsky
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 8:39 AM
zavetsky@boxfrog.com
Having been a dumb colleg kid once myself, I understand the passions that flow when you find "a cause" to hook into to be different than mainstream....
But do these kids realize what the impact of their demonstrations can have?? Let's face it, we are in Iraq and the goal now is to finish the job and get out, with the least cost to our family and friends fighting on our behalf.
Do these kids understand the costs we will pay if we fail? And do they realize that they are contributing AGAINST the good of our country?
I wonder how they would feel if we DID lose this battle and we were instantaneously transported into a world where folks like Sadaam rule....I would wonder if these kids with their comfy colleg dorms (some paid for by the same government they criticize, by the way) would feel any different when their studies were changed from "Undecided" or "Musical theory" to whatever the government forced on them?
Don't bite the hand that feeds you, children. That used to be the first thing taught to kids as they grew up. I think we need to get back to that concept.
Finally, I find the latest protests (Thursday evening) unbelievable....accosting innocent commuters who may very well agree with you, blocking traffic causing strife simply because you want to be heard...How can you on one hand demand peace and on the other cause unrest?
DZ
not-your-average-dumb-college-kid
by Loc
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 8:55 AM
Don't bite the hand that feeds me? So basically, what you're telling me is that you are 100% content with the state of our country.. that there is nothing that you would change or want differently? You agree that it's morally sound to test a geopolitical theory, the cost of which is blood? You think that Saddam is the center of all troubles in the middle east, and that by toppling him it'll be a pleasant little utopia? haha.. don't bite the hand that feeds me... I hope you remember that after a draft, sitting on a sand dune, with a hole blown in your arm, filling out your taxes
"Bite"...cont'd.
by Dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 9:15 AM
Actually, as a 10 year veteran, I did my time, so dont preach to me about the cost of war. I know what it is and I paid.
That being said.
Am I 100% happy with how our country is ? No...It would be naive to think , though, that anyone could be.
My "dont bite the hand" comment is directed at the youths who are getting freebie or subsidised educations from the same government they riducule as "monsters" and "nazis"....If they feel taht way tehy shoudl give up ANY tie to our government, including these benefits.
You may feel like we have it so bad in this country...I submit that you need to live for awhile in another...your views would change. In many countries, taxes are not necessary, as you would be living hand to mouth in a two room aprtment with no electricity or running water, and you would be happy to get even that. Let alone, a PC so that you could post anti-government comments.
I feel that it is an absolute right to make your voice heard.
But there is a point where doing so in certain ways cross the line and begin to inflict as much harm as what they protest.
And, my sentiment is that if you want to condemn a government or country, fine.....disassociate yourself from it completely, not half way. That means LEAVE.
This may seem like a off the wall comment...but if you are truly unhappy with living in the US, why stay?? WOuldnt elsewhere be happier, where you can live the way you want to live??
WHy waste precious energy protesting when all you need to do is buy a plan ticket and move??
What is government?
by Nick
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 1:15 PM
pnk6@pitt.edu
A few points:
1) You used the terms �government� and �country� as if describing a person or group of people who hand out scholastic aid at 10:00, wage war at 11:00 and then break for lunch at 12:00. There are several thousand elected officials in this country and to condemn a group of them, no matter how high ranking, and their actions does not mean that one is hypocritical to accept, encourage and even benefit from others.
2) As soon as there are a massive amount of exiles from a country, voluntary or involuntary, all traces of democracy have withered away. �Love it or leave it?� How about �love it or work like hell to change it�
3) Before this war, I protested in the vain hope that maybe it would help prevent the bloodshed. Now that it has begun, I refuse to set down by banners and �support our troops.� I continue to protest to show solidarity with most of the world�s people and to show them that this horrid offence is not the will of all of the American people, because all signs point to more unreasonable warfare in the future and thus a longstanding peace movement is needed and as a general way to vent my rage.
---
by Dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:07 PM
Your points #1 and 2 are good ones...and I ask YOU the same thing right back...
Why not change things when they can REALLY be changed?? IE at the voting booth and in local government??
Why do "activists" always seem to wait till AFTER the fact to "try like hell to change things"...?
responce
by Nick
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 3:30 PM
pnk6@pitt.edu
"Why not change things when they can REALLY be changed?? IE at the voting booth and in local government?"
Well, I can't speak for all protesters but I vote in ANY election. You are absolutely right that people should take more of an interest in local affairs. They may not be as epic and important as (espeacially in this day) national ones, but they still are important. It is a shame that there is such little activism and concern in the case of the community.
"Why do 'activists' always seem to wait till AFTER the fact to 'try like hell to change things'...?"
I'm a little confused on this one. There had never been as such a large and wordly protest over a war BEFORE it started as there has been in the past six months.
oh c'mon now davey
by jwg
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 3:39 PM
stop telling people to leave.
if you're not happy with your country --- CHANGE it, don't leave it.
My country and my government have been hijacked
I want them back
A wrap up for the day.....
by Dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 7:29 PM
Hi Nick...
DZ said "Why do 'activists' always seem to wait till AFTER the fact to 'try like hell to change things'...?"
Nick said "I'm a little confused on this one. There had never been as such a large and wordly protest over a war BEFORE it started as there has been in the past six months."
Sorry, I was a little vague on that one...What I meant is that up until now, the rallys and protests have been few and far between, at least in our neck of the woods.....Now that the troops are there, all hell seems to break loose on the activist side.....
Call me crazy, but this kind of stuff doesnt help anything once we are THERE. Why didnt anyone organize leaflet canvassing for the last several months?? Organized, peaceful demonstrations that people could see and not get turned off by??? Why not scrape together funds and put TV ads on local cable plugging your casue??? It can be done.....if the desire to do right is there enough, it can be done....
Unfortunately, because of the way these rallies are organzied, carried out and yes (unfortunately) evevn because of who the majority of the protesters are (youth), they arent given much credit by folks....
Look, I am VERY MUCH in favor of free speech and sayingwhat is on your mind and fighting for what you think is right.....But fighting for what is right is NOT just about carrying a sign for one night and tipping over paper boxes......I have seen no real dedication to the cause that the protesters claim to be pushing.....
Just one other observation........not aimed at you Nick...just the protests in general....spoken from an average Joe.....Yesterday was a pretty large turnout.....and now, folks are p'od that arrests were made, etc.....
Now, I would have thought that the two rallys planned for today at Market Square and at the fed building/jail would have been WAY laregr than yesterday if there is a true "peace movement" underway,......but there was only a handful of folks at MS, and like what, 50 people at the jail??? THAT doesnt seem like a "majority movemnet" as some folks claim there to be.....I just don;t see it.....
I cant help but think that somehow the weather and the fact that it is friday night both had some effect on the turnout...and I would submit that if that is true then these rallys really are less than the organizers claim them to be.....weather and friday night should not stand in the way of pushing toward a true social revolution......
Can you understand why some of us folks see the protests this way???
Most of us really dont have a problem with differing opinions....some do and they slander folks for it, which is wrong, on both sides.....But folks DO have a problem when rallys etc get in the way of their regular day to day chores.
Like it or dont folks have to work to live and survive. It is your perogative to abhore that lifestyle, but it is the majority lifestyle in the US. It is up to YOU folks to convince US to think like you and support YOU...NOT the other way around....
Peace to all......I truly hope that this whole thing is resolved soon and that world peace can be attained.....
DZ
Replies
by Nick
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:23 PM
pnk6@pitt.edu
"What I meant is that up until now, the rallys and protests have been few and far between, at least in our neck of the woods....Why didnt anyone organize leaflet canvassing for the last several months?? Organized, peaceful demonstrations that people could see and not get turned off by???" Well, I'm not sure what you mean here. The January 27th and March 16th rallies in Oakland were organized, peaceful demonstrations that attracted a wide variety of people. Smaller protests have popped up all across the area for the past few months. There have been vigils in front of the federal building every Friday for weeks. I don’t see how demonstrations in this area can be called “few and far between.” "Why not scrape together funds and put TV ads on local cable plugging your casue??? It can be done.....if the desire to do right is there enough, it can be done...." No, it can’t. Most cable networks refused to air anti-war adds staring Charlie Sheen. Furthermore, the steaming glob of mind-bending idiocy that is cable TV seems like a bad place to recruit for a cause. "Unfortunately, because of the way these rallies are organzied, carried out and yes (unfortunately) evevn because of who the majority of the protesters are (youth), they arent given much credit by folks...." Well, that's not really true. The more rage-filled demonstrations of the past few days have certainly been mainly angsty youths. I was truly suprised by the amount of older people at the January 27, 2003 march. One woman was even crying because she thought there should be more students concerned about the war. Most of the organized anti-war activity in Pittsburgh is cordinated by the Thomas Merton Center, which is composed mostly of middle-aged adults. Today’s peace movement is not strictly or even predominantly a youth movement. "I would have thought that the two rallys planned for today at Market Square and at the fed building/jail would have been WAY laregr than yesterday if there is a true ‘peace movement’ underway,......but there was only a handful of folks at MS, and like what, 50 people at the jail??? THAT doesnt seem like a 'majority movemnet' as some folks claim there to be.....I just don;t see it....." Wait. First you claim that the anti-war movement in this area didn’t really get off the ground before the war started and now you comment on the dwindling numbers at today’s protest? I don’t understand Anyway, the anti-war movement is becoming extremist. I think a lot of people were frightened away because the protests have turned violent in the past few days (although, still pretty peaceful when compared to the kind that were happening around 1969). Also, the movement has turned to tactics that not everyone supports. I, for one, thought the protesters in Oakland acted like total assholes and didn't want to be associated with them so I went home early. That's also why today only I went to the vigil at the federal building. This and a general feeling of futility now that the war has begun probably explain the loss in numbers at Pittsburgh protests. And anyone who claims the protests represent a “true social revelution” is lying (sensationalizing and propagating falsehoods to bolster a cause is the fuction of any interest group). The anti-war movement grows out of time-honored traditions such as pacifism, isolationism, respect for diplomacy and apprehension towards morally ambiguous reasoning. "But folks DO have a problem when rallys etc get in the way of their regular day to day chores.Like it or dont folks have to work to live and survive. It is your perogative to abhore that lifestyle, but it is the majority lifestyle in the US." That's true and I can't say I support tactics such as stopping traffic and blocking buildings. There is a lot of reasons why these tactics are being employed. Some of them are good in theory. Many feel that it is not justifiable for life to go on as usual in a country that commits international crimes. Many feel that ordinary work-a-day lifestyles have caused this war and thus throwing a cog in the gears is justified (These are the ones who "abhor that lifestyle"). However, the result is merely annoying someone who had no real part in the war. Greed and the capitalist mindset had a big part in this war, but stopping traffic for fifteen minutes really doesn't do much to chip away at it. The fact that protestors are not speaking their mind peacefully and allowing others to be is the major reason why I have distanced myself from the movement (not the cause mind you) in the past few days.
Power in organized numbers
by Dave Z
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 12:19 AM
"Wait. First you claim that the anti-war movement in this area didn�t really get off the ground before the war started and now you comment on the dwindling numbers at today�s protest? I don�t understand"
Just to 'splain a bit......Well, yes, I am saying both....
The movement's impact seems to have been somewhat low (as far as an average Joe's perspective) over the last few months....I spend quite a bit of time downtown, for instance, and I never saw ONE protest or one sign....am I there at the wrong time/place?? Even if that is the case, the result is that I percieve the movemnet as just coming up now....
As far as the perception that the numbers have decreased, I am referring simply to yesterday versus today......Yesterday's more angry/violent rally is the first I have heard anything about (ok, admitedly because the press covers this type more than a peaceful rally).comparing that one to today, I would have assumed that there would have been double or triple or more the number of folks rallying if so many injustices were perpetrated and if the movement truly had a majority backing.....From the turnout and how things were handled, I surmised that it is mostly a student movement....dont get angry, thats just how I percieved it, and many others did as well.....
Its a perception thing.
WIth so few people showing up today, I get the message (whether incorrect or not) that either the arrests, weather or the Friday night aspect kept people away...and THAT gives me the perception that the rallys are simply an activity that is being done by folks not necessarily 100% committed to their cause...a rally of convenience rather than a rally of true dedication and concern.
See what I mean??
I understand that this may not be true...but perception is everything. The way that the public percieves these rallys is JUST as important as anything.
Arent the rallys meant to try to draw support and "win over" folks to this line of thinking?? If you ask me, its all about PR, just like in a large company. Public opinion of a company has a great deal to do with how successful the company is in a market. Same with rallys and folks who have agendas to push, whether they are pro-war or anti-war, in this case: The kneejerk reaction of many average folks is to be in favor of war simply because of all that has happened over the last 12 years and 911......Your job is to convince (not force) the average Joe into thinking otherwise.....
Make the movement look like a responsible, thought out and organized faction, with plenty of dedicated folks who are there thick and thin, and you are more likely to gain supporters. Have a rally or two that seems to be geared toward pissing off the average person, and you lose their support, which is counterintuitive to the whole concept of trying to win public support........
Anyways, just my $.02.....good talking with you.
DZ
I am a Patriot
by Bill Zavetsky
Saturday, Jun. 21, 2003 at 10:40 AM
zavetskw@bellsouth.net
First, let me introduce myself. I am Bill Zavetsky, younger brother of Dave Zavetsky. I am no where near Pittsburgh now but stumbled across this thread by accident. I would like to say that I serverd 4 years of ACTIVE Army duty with time spent overseas in Korea so if anyone knows the cost of war, it would be me and not my brother, for he served on reserve stateside duty only. No offesense Dave. Moving along: I cannot stand our current leadership. At first, I warmed to the idea of the younger Bush in office. I did not vote for him, but nonetheless he was elected (not by popular vote mind you) by the American People. I totally disagreed with the war before it started and still do since we have "won". I think there was a personal motive on King George's II part and that is why we attacked iraq. WMD? Maybe but I doubt it. THE UN did not find anything before the bombs started falling. We were just asked to "believe" our leadership and trust them. Right! To not examine and question our leaders acts is treasonous in my book and un-American. To follow along because it is easier and supposedly better for us according to the government is naive at best and treasonous at worst. I think history wil record that George W. made the right call. That's what US history books will read. Other countries books will argue against that and they may be right after all. Our country is the best in the world. We got there because of people willing to stand up against tyranny and wicked men. We are losing freedoms every day because of legislation such as the Patriot act. When the time comes to say enough I will be there, as any true American would be. To roll over and just say "usa is still better than china" is stupid. I want more. I demand more!! I am an American! I am Not a King George II subject and I refuse to become one at any cost for I do know the cost of freedom and also the cost of losing such freedom.
just my own opinion
-billz
"Active duty" ?? Really?
by Dave Zavetsky
Thursday, Jul. 03, 2003 at 8:42 AM
zavetsky@boxfrog.com
" I would like to say that I serverd 4 years of ACTIVE Army duty with time spent overseas in Korea so if anyone knows the cost of war, it would be me and not my brother, for he served on reserve stateside duty only."
Ok, found this thread again "by accident" myself, so let me retort....Yes, I served stateside as a reservist...for over 10 years. You didnt mention that your "overseas service" was in peace time and at a cushy hospital assignment, so get off your high horse....You stayed on a US Army base, slept in a US Army base barracks (apartment) and worked in a US Army Hospital......WHAT "active duty" did you ever see??? Ok, you went to work everyday if THAT is considered "active duty".....But for THIS discussion, "Active duty" means putting yoru life on the line...which you definately didn;t , anymoreso than I....
If anything, I was "closer" to real Active duty that you ever were, as I retired from active reserves literally months before my old unit was activated to go to Desert Storm where my friends worked in front line hospitals.....IN A WAR ZONE.
Why you feel you needed to make your poiint about this aspect in a public forum, I dont know...
" I cannot stand our current leadership. At first, I warmed to the idea of the younger Bush in office. I did not vote for him, but nonetheless he was elected (not by popular vote mind you) by the American People."
President Bush was elected in the end by the electoral college...an extention of the American people.......Had the popular vote been high enough against him he wouldn;t have gotten in.....the reason that the electoral college came into play is because the popular vote was so close.....and yes, in a country with millions of people, a couple hundred thousand voets difference IS a very close call. hence the EC.
" I totally disagreed with the war before it started and still do since we have "won". I think there was a personal motive on King George's II part and that is why we attacked iraq. WMD? Maybe but I doubt it. THE UN did not find anything before the bombs started falling."
Ok....here is a scenario.....Let's say you a drug dealer and arms smuggler. You get a tip that the FBI is going to search your place two weeks from now......What are you going to do?? Hide/destroy the evidence. Of COURSE they didnt find WMD when the inspections were done.....whtacha think....that a country known to propogate terrorists is going to just give up and say "Yep, we have WMD...go ahead and take them..." ?? Get real.
By the way, the "King George II" comment sounds EXACTLY like someone we both now and grew up with....funny that you are taking on his slang now....
" We were just asked to "believe" our leadership and trust them. Right! To not examine and question our leaders acts is treasonous in my book and un-American."
You brag about your "active duty service" yet come up with THIS kind of bunk?? I think you missed the whole point fo being in the armed services....you were trained to be part of the very thing you are condemning....you made a living off of it for a time...and you wear that liek a badge yet you can denounce it that way?? I don't get it....
" I think history wil record that George W. made the right call. That's what US history books will read. Other countries books will argue against that and they may be right after all."
Ok, so now our history books are all wrong too??? Of COURSE "our" history books will be biased toward the American view.....and the French history books will show THEIR feelings on it....and the Iraqui history books will be biased with THEIR feelings on it...so what?? What does this prove?? Anytime you have man writing something down, it is wrought with bias...Hell, even the bible can be interpretted 10 different ways on many things, since it was written by man (inspired by the Divine)....
" Our country is the best in the world. We got there because of people willing to stand up against tyranny and wicked men. We are losing freedoms every day because of legislation such as the Patriot act. When the time comes to say enough I will be there, as any true American would be. "
It is easy to condemn the country you live in when you have it so good......Try living in another country for REAL (NOT on the US Army teet) and then report back....I fully admit I haven't lived elsewhere either, but I also acknowledge that we have it a HELLUVA lot better here than the Iraqui people EVER did, and YES, that is from "standing up against tyranny and wicked men"....Be thankful that men like your Grandfather DID their duty or else you might be sitting down SOuth eating rice and drinking saki right now.....<grin>
" I want more. I demand more!! I am an American! I am Not a King George II subject and I refuse to become one at any cost"
Ok, then get out there and demand more...what is stopping you??? Posting this kind of tripe here aint gonna do it.....
".... for I do know the cost of freedom and also the cost of losing such freedom. "
Tell me what you have EVER lost in the way of freedom?? How can you POSSIBLY say this?? You dont know the cost of freedom any more than I do......Now, we have great-uncles who did, but do you truly think that you and I know "the cost of freedom" OR the "cost of losing freedom" ????
Like I said...it is easy to spout off against your government in teh US....just keep in mind that men died for the very same body of law that you and others condemn as "tyranny"...and if you want to see tyranny, move to Iran for a few years and report back...Then you will have room to condemn a tyrnanical leader....But it wont be Bush you will be railing against.
DZ
what's the point?
by becca
Sunday, Nov. 09, 2003 at 5:32 PM
ok, you people may not listen to me, because i'm only a 14 year old girl. but the way i see it, war is pointless. i don't know everything that's going on with bush, but i think that he's a moron. and no, my parents don't preach to me, i think for myself though they do have the same morals as me.
prove it
by Irving
Sunday, Nov. 09, 2003 at 6:26 PM
Where's your "proof" that war is pointless?
Did you hear the rumor that we were attacked on September the 11th of 2001? And don't open your mouth if all that'll come out of it is "it's all our fault". That's the mewlings of someone mentally disturbed, who grew up nelieving a lie.
And answer logically and thoughtfully, not from emotionalism or fear, or just because you want to fit in with the Borg crowd.
But since you said Bush was a moron, yet claimed nobody filled your head full of that, I doubt we'll ever hear anything rational and reasoned.
14 year old Borgisms
by anti-Borg
Sunday, Nov. 09, 2003 at 6:32 PM
And answer this too. I assume you know history?
14 year old morons
by anti-moron
Sunday, Nov. 09, 2003 at 6:40 PM
You're right, little sugah. War is pointless.
There's the beginnings of talk on the newswires of their finding more mass graves in Iraq. The number is likely inflated, but still, what do you think about mass graves?
What do you think of torturing girls your age? Would you like to have a power drill run through you? To be raped while your Daddy was forced to watch?
Why do Leftist sewage cry they're the ones who care about human rights, until it's time for them to put their money where their mouth is? Why do they turn their backs they claim to care for? Why do they march for Communist organizations? How many millions of people have died under the regimes the protestors aid and succor?
Loves Castro, Hates Bush
by 2Beers
Sunday, Nov. 09, 2003 at 8:19 PM
I'll bet you have a hell of a belly-button lint collection too.
lies and propaganda
by Irving
Sunday, Nov. 09, 2003 at 8:34 PM
I notice you're an adolescent constantly spamming and infesting the IndyMedia with your Pro Terrorist Palestinian image.
I'll also bet my life you're a zit cragged little junior high dweeb, who even gets rejected by his inflatable doll.
Would you care to answer any of my questions, such as why do Leftists claim they're for human rights, but like you they want to be Arafat groupies?
A shame nobody strapped a bomb to you when young, Little Precious. You breathe our air.
Now you come back with a witty retort, not some icky rejoinder from a blushing faced 7th grader.
women are property
by Leftists Against Women
Tuesday, Nov. 18, 2003 at 10:55 PM
Women shouldn't have any rights. It's time to take a direct action against women everywhere. Keep them barefoot and pregnant and in the kitchen! No more women's studies. Down with the oppressive matriarchal lower class!
what a great idea
by judge
Tuesday, Nov. 18, 2003 at 11:16 PM
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Tuesday, Nov. 18, 2003 at 11:18 PM
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Tuesday, Nov. 18, 2003 at 11:23 PM
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