community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
PITTSBURGH -- RESIST NOW!
by Resistor
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 8:22 AM
Call to shut down downtown today, Thursday March 20th.
"This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be
both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing
without a demand. It never has and it never will."
-- Frederick Douglass, Orator and Abolitionist
The United States Government clearly states that public opinion,
international and domestic, is irrelevant. The warmongering elites of this
country will continue to push for a war that will benefit a few and murder
countless thousands of Iraqis as a rain of fire falls from their skies. This
will all be done by a few in the name of millions. People all over the
country and the world have been actively organizing against a war in Iraq, a
war our illegitimate leaders talk about as if it were inevitable.
Students walked out of school by the thousands, manifestations of oppressive
government have been smashed by protestors, and on the streets of
Pittsburgh, hundreds hailing from all walks of life have taken to the
streets in an effort to cry out against state-run mass-murder.
Still, an un-elected leader marches to war.
This Thursday March 20, 2003 the Pittsburgh Organizing Group is calling for
people to meet at 5pm at the Federal Building at the corner of Liberty Ave
and Grant St in downtown Pittsburgh. Coordinated with the Thomas Merton
Center, we will stand up once again against the use of force in Iraq and
elsewhere. There will be both law abiding acts of resistance on the sidewalk
along with non-violent civil disobedience elsewhere. A human chain will be
formed on the sidewalk around the Federal building. The extent of further
actions will depend on the situation in Iraq at the time. If the bombing has
begun our resistance will obviously be escalated as the Pittsburgh
Organizing Group is calling for a snake march through downtown Pittsburgh to
halt business as usual? in response to any escalation of the aggression
against Iraq. The decision of which tactics to use will be made on the spot,
so your numbers are appreciated.
We, as freedom loving and peace loving people have only one choice: The day
the bombing starts, America Stops. This will happen in the streets of
countless cities across the nation as people take direct action to stop war
and save lives. It is our responsibility to strike non-violently at all
government institutions and the moneyed interests behind them. We must begin
to strike at the war machine here so that people everywhere may live another
day! When the out-of-control administration has realized it cannot conduct
this war without its people, thousands of lives will be saved.
Join us in expressing our resistance to the killing perpetuated overseas in
our name!
Remember: Come prepared! No one can predict what the response may be to
resistance once the bombing has begun. If we all look out for one another,
we can all go home safely.
Wake Up
by Steve Gindlesperger
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 11:25 AM
This is absurd.
It makes me sick to see "activists" protecting a tyrant beacuse they oppose the concept of war. No one wants to go to war but unfortunately that is the only option left. Read the facts! The man leading the government has killed over a million of the citizens of Iraq. How much longer do you want to try and use diplomacy that doesn't work. There is a majority of people, in the U.S. and around the world that agree with overthrowing the Iraqi regime. The fact that the anti-war protestors liek yourself are louder and more vocal doesn't mean the world agrees with you. The fact is that you get a lot of television time for saying "no war" or "Bush is a moron", etc.
Bush is our elected president. Face the facts.
We are at war with an evil man and you try to bring up trivial issues because your arguement holds no water.
Research! Find the facts!
War is bad, everyone agrees but we have to do something because I refuse to wait and see if Pittsburgh is next on the terrorist list.
Please know the whole argument before you try to voice your unjust opinion.
No one wants war. No one wants anyone to die.
But we have to do something.
Plant your daisies, say your prayers but support our fathers and sons who may lose their life to save someone elses. We care about the world not about publicity.
What Fantasy World
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 11:43 AM
che@hotmail.iraq
Do you live in. You actually believe that you shoudl march in support of a leader that has defied the United Nations, has committed heainous acts of tortuer and other violations of human rights, and who actively and openly supports the continuation and escalation of civil conflict in Isreal and the middle east? Why was it hat when President Bill Clinton unilaterally ordered bombing of the Balkans (from altitudes that practically insured significatnt 'collateral' damage) that the laft was silent. Why is it when President Bill Clinton ignored the genocide in Rawanda the left was silent. And on and on. The answer..the left does not support freedom from tyranny, does not desire safety adn international stability, and does not care about the rights of otehrs not part of the left...unless it meets the immediate political desires of the left. The left has taken an arrogant, elitist and isolationsist approach to the geo-political situation of the modern world. And that can not be tolerated. I note that it was the governements of France and Germany that actively derailed the possibility of a diplomatic solution in this matter. Threatening to veto any proposal offered by the US/UK (no compromise there), even when the proposal was merely asking for a confirmatino of the Resolution already adopted. DIplomacy may have actually worked if the UN had not been so feckless and consumed wiht the petty politcal ambitions of Old Europe. Diplomacy could have made Saddam Hussein full well aware that his time of deceit adn defience was over, rather than giving him comfort adn resolve that the world doesnot always hate a despot when that despot is opposed by leaders who themselves are reviled by western liberals. Admit it, for the Leftists, this is not about war, it is not about children, it is not about eradicating tyranny and rascism that detabilizes the middle east ... it is about your misdirected and passionate hatred of a President that you wrongly refer to as "an unelected offical." And rather than screwing up the roadways and the local economy, why not just right a letter to the editor, go on telivision and rant, or just vote. But I know htat the answer to that is that you have no respect for the civil liberties of others who have a right to drive home unmolested by fools parading in the streets. Protest all you want, but be polite and respectful if you know how.
comment
by commentorite
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 11:50 AM
we dont support saddam you idiots. just because we are against war and bush does not mean that by default we support saddam. that is ridiculous and idiotic reasoning. there are more than two answers. its just as stupid as us telling you that you dont support peace.
i for one am against this war. i am also against peace. i dont want a world where the united states can invade other countries. i also dont want a world where saddam is a dictator. war may get rid of saddam, but it wont get rid of terrorism, it wont get rid of global disatisfaction with the world order. in fact, war will only fuel the fire of resistence. peace wont stop terrorism either, as it can only continue the status quo, it wont get rid of global disatisfaction. i think that continued resistence might. when those who have no voice speak with force and over turn the institutions of the global order, then their disatisfaction will end. global capitalism has created its own resistence, it can no longer end that resistence by giving it a voice, because it has long ago assimilated the world into itself. resistence can now be everywhere and can now be everything. the mechanisms of the state cannot give that resistence a voice. so now this resistence must give itself a voice. i predict an increase in terrorism, global protest and rebellion. the world order may be dying, but we still have to kill it first.
Get a Clue!
by Bill Allen
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 11:51 AM
I guess all of you protesters are marching for the continued butchery of the Iraqi people. Where were you when we sent troops to Somalia and Bosnia? Oh - I forgot - Clinton was president....
Get a clue...and get a job!
comment
by commentorite
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 11:55 AM
yes you are right. it is only possible for people to be either replicans or democrats. anything else is beyond comprehension. were all democrats and support clinton because we arent republicans or support bush. thats it exactly... all those people who protested somalia and bosnia didnt exist either. since it wasnt prominent in the corporate news media it couldnt have happened. brilliant.
Irritated by Liberals
by S. Fischer
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 12:02 PM
You people are idiots. If you feel it necessary to protest the government that is trying to protect you from other attacks then why don't you go live in Iraq or some other middle eastern country where you have no rights. Have you already forgotten what happened on September 11, 2001 to the United States??
Do something constructive with your time - - like work. Hold your little peace rally wtihin your own little community and leave the hard working people alone. Rallies like this don't do crap. You are just a nuisance. Take your political stance somewhere where it matters, like washington. Who in Pittsburgh has any kind of control over whether we are at war or not?
You Fools
by Anonymous
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 12:05 PM
I agree with Bill Allen. Suddam Hussein and his sons torture, rape, and kill innocent people but you people want to protest against taking him out of power. You must have rocks in your heads.
oh shit
by commentorite
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 12:08 PM
you people are right. the shere brilliance and rationale of your impressive arguments have convinced me to abandon activism and to renounce the left. im going to join a fraternity and register to vote as a republican. thanks guys for enlightening me to the errors of my ways!
this is foolish
by susyzimzel
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 12:16 PM
susyzimzel@yahoo.com
Despite the fact that conservatives love to throw around empty rhetoric and use phrases like "you're either with us or against us," I don't know a single person who actually supports Saddam, or who actually hates a member of the US military...the pointless bullshit and name-calling doesn't get anyone anywhere. If you want to waste your time and everyone else's, go right ahead. A part of living in a (so-called??) democracy is that people are allowed to be idiots. People are allowed to also not agree with you, whether you're for or against the war. If people don't have these rights, then we're no better off than the people in Iraq George Bush claims we're setting free.
In any case, a quote I really liked that I read this morning..."I don't understand how dropping bombs on children
is the best way to achieve peace."
"against saddam"..
by jd..
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 12:25 PM
if you think that you are against saddam and his heinous acts then why dont you think of more non-violent solutions like a UN backed democratic elections or referendum in iraq (have we forgotten such solutions?) and why would you assume that our "president" (for god's sake he was not even elected) would one fine day in september 2002 think of the atrocities that saddam is inflicting on his people and decide to wage a war in "the name of freedom." also do not forget the bombing of afghanistan and the coming to power of the US backed National Alliance. when the president of National Alliance was interviewed by reuters about the difference between Tabibal and the NA, he replied that the only difference between Taliban and NA is that the Taliban beheaded people accused of infidelity in sport stadiums and we will stone them to death." surely this is what bush [sic] means by freedom...
Leftists rightists bullshitters
by jwg
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 12:40 PM
There are no such things as leftists and rightists. If you care to think about it at all, make up YOUR OWN MIND! Do not follow party lines, the parties are there to oppress you and fool you into believing your free. Just becuase you can ride in nice cars and go home and watch sitcoms every night doesn't make you free.
Every time you complain about a tax, or not getting a fare shake, think about how much money your government just took from you to kill someone half way around the world who bore no grudge against you.
Bombing Bosnia was wrong, diplomacy should have been used, and I did speak aainst it in my local paper. But bombing Bosnia was not going to end the world as we know it. THESE CRMINAL ACTS AGAINST IRAQ WILL! That is why more people are taking up voice. Every bomb dropped on Baghdad put us one step closer to someone getting on a PAT bus with a bomb strapped to them. America will become the #1 terror target on earth. You will not know comfort then. Maybe then you will see why some of us are trying to take a stand.
war whores
by susyzimzel
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 12:50 PM
susyzimzel@yahoo.com
If you don't want to be bothered by anti-war sentiment, then why are you looking at this website? FOXNEWS needs you to return to them to keep their ratings up. This supposed battle between GOOD vs. EVIL (quite silly to try to push things on us in 1st grader terminology, really) really can't be won if you're looking at this website, now can it? And, just wondering, if you're so for the war, why aren't you over there fighting right now?
Commentortie is Confused
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 12:51 PM
SO you are agaisnt war. And you are agaisnt peace? Because you do not want a world where the US can invade another country. Then I guess you want isolationism..becasue apparently no one else is willing to invade another country to free its people and end a despotic regime that has as its stated purpose the destabilization of hte West and the eradication of hte Isreali state. Take a history course rather than just sitting around acting like you actually understadn anything about world affairs. THe US is not a colonial power (like France once was and then left the world in disarray in such former colonies as Vietnam). You would have Saddam go on his merry way just because you do not have the moral fortitude to stand up to his ilk. WHy not protest Saddam's regime for a change. Why not call on Saddam to end this war by complying wiht international law. Why not speak with that "voice of global opinion" and condemn Saddam as you codemn President Bush. The US is in the unfortuante role of policeman to the world, becasue there is no other nation or institution capable of doing the job. You will recall (actually, you probably will not recall) how the UN sat around doing little more than deciding on a dinner menu while mass murder was being carried out under the UN's watchful eye in the Balkans. Or how the UN failed to decide on an effective strategy for dealing with Saddam in the 12 years following the limited engagement that the UN had undertaken in the first Gulf War (to be carried out at the expense of hte US). Face it, your hatred of President Bush is what has you marching giving support to the idea of prolongin the murderous regime of Saddma Husein which not only carries out crimes agaisnt the people of Iraq, but also to the people of the middle east, Isreal and yes, the US (Do you really think that Saddam was not supporting El Queada?).
read the facts?
by Brian
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 12:54 PM
artriotmedia@aol.com
Which leader are you talking about thats killed more than a million Iraqis? We've killed more than a million Iraqis since the end of the Gulf War. Bush also was selected last time I checked, a majority of people in America voted for Gore.
oh mr policeman!!
by dh..
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 12:55 PM
oh so why doesnt mr policeman order democratic elections or a referendum and truly stand for freedom. so naive you are che..
But protestors are also the problem
by Vet
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 12:56 PM
As it always seems, you people are the ones who disrupt, you are the ones who make the problems, you are the the loud-mouthed leftists spoiling for a fight. Sometimes you get it, and that's good. You are the ones planning to be a problem downtown, not the conservative American patriots who understand the price of freedom, or the prevention of future domination.
I've seen you people before -- you were against America gaining it's own independance, you were against the aboultion of slavery, you are against the freedom of a human child to live outside the womb, you were there in Frisco ranting at us who served in Nam. I know who you are -- you are not really Americans, but yuo like to live here and eat our food and take our jobs, and enjoy our lifestyles, but you are only out for your own selfish gratification in the end.
I just wish you would all go away and leave Americans alone. You have no idea of reality, not idea of pain, no idea of social morals and mores. You don't think, you just react to your own selfish desires. If you need to, you even fabricate rediculous statement to support your un-american ideas. True Americans are getting wise to you. How stupid can you be to belive that conservatives actually "want" a war? Especially today? You are as big a problem within our country as terrorism. You kind have always been.
"Oh Shit"?
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 12:56 PM
Hey Comentortite...it is the absolute ignorance of your coments and argument that make you so right? NOT !! It is the abject ignoracne of your argumnets that...wel...that.. well it makes your comments JUST PLAIN STUPID. I can't wait to see you on TV in some unwashed parka and a bad hairdo screaming your words of encu=ouragement for Saddam and the Palestinian murders he supports. Why don't you have your rally in Squirrell Hill and see if anybody shows up for your pro-Saddam rant. Too bad we don't have any bulldozers for you guys to sit down in front of like that twit in Gaza.
re: Get a Clue
by Brian
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 12:58 PM
artriotmedia@aol.com
I'd get a job if the unemployment rate hadn't went up another 5.8% since Bush has been in office.......
who is an american?
by ju
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:01 PM
you idiot vet.. can you define who an american is? arent all (of course except the native americans) immigrants here?
stop this rant of "i know" "i know" which has no base..
"this is foolish"?
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:02 PM
"I don't understand how dropping bombs on children is anyway to achieve peace" -- Suzyzimzel (above)
WEll Suzy, I agree that that is typically not a good strategic military agenda. However, I could see how it could achieve peace, if say, you had a despotic leader who paid the parents of those children to strap bombs to those kids to go blow up geriatrics adn other kids who kmight be Jewish (or just riding the bus in or around someone who might be Jewish), then dropping a bomb on the kid could help the casue of peace.
Alternatively, you could just drop the bomb on the guy that is paying the parents of hte children to blow up their kids. THat is the course of conduct I think the US is pursuing here. Last I heard there were not infants or children firing off the SCUDS. So until the Rugrats are ruling Iraq, I think you rhetoric is just plain stupid. (But actually, I kind of like the idea of the Rugrats ruling Iraq, since they are Jewish and that woudl really piss off Sadddam Hussein.)
re: Irritated by Liberals
by Brian
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:07 PM
artriotmedia@aol.com
First off, I'm not a liberal, I'm a leftist. Secondly, Bush had the oppurtunity to protect us from the first attack. He was warned in August, he stayed on vacation instead of taking measure to protect the people of this country. He's not protecting us now either by heightening the possibility of attacks, sending us over to die, and diverting money into a war effort that could be spent on protection.
RE: re:get a clue
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:08 PM
WRONG !! You wouldn't get a job even if the unemployment rate were .0001% (that would be you, the 1 in that number). You're just another hard-core unemployable nit-wit with more time on his/her hands than sensibility.
Federal Building
by Michael
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:12 PM
News says that the federal building is closing at 3 p.m. in anticipation of the anti-war rally @ 5 p.m. Rumor has it that some working at U.S. Steel building are being allowed to go home early as well. I think it is nifty that grassroots protests organized over the web can cause such a reaction.
RE:Re:Irritated By Liberals
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:18 PM
Brian, you ignorant Leftist.
You are intellectiually dishonest here. Bill CLinton knew about this stuff for years befroe (the Cole bombing, the Embassy, Osama the Fugitive, etc.) and did NOTHING. SO Bush is there for a few months and all the problems of the world are his fault??? And the cost..How much cash do you think it costs just to "contain" Saddam and serve as Mall Guard for the region while the UN sends in more crack investigators like Blinky BLix? Guess what, the cost of letting this guy live on his get out of jail free card another day (or another decade) is far greater than the cost of the war effort. Besides, if spending my tax dollars stopping anohter 9/11 or more children in Palestine blowing themselves and otehrs away means I don't have to spend anymore of my tax dollars supportign you on the dole then fire away Georgie Boy.
To Mr. Vet
by Brian
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:22 PM
artriotmedia@aol.com
Apparently you missed my post caling for a prolife prescence at the next march. Your basing your theories on pure assumptions, have you taken a chance to get to know any of us? Have you asked us about all of our beliefs? Let me introduce myself to you mr. vet. My name is Brian Combs, I'm a resident of the borough of bellevue. I'm a 19 year old college student at PTI. I'm pro-life and a born again Christian. I'm involved with the newly formed Pittsburgh chapter of Rock For Life. I attend sunday services at the FIrst presbyterian church of pittsburgh, and I attend wednesday youth group at DUsquene, at Crossroads. Upon completion of my associates I intend to transfer to Messiah or Geneva to major in youth ministry. I study the bible on a daily basis and allow the teachings of Jesus Christ to guide my every action. I am all these things, and I am also a protestor. I will be marching with my brothers and sisters tonight downtown. Please stop making your assumptions that we all have no concept of morality. If your kids or grandchildren go to a youth group, who knows, I might be the one teaching them about morality in the future.
leader of idiots
by ....
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:22 PM
che you jobless mindless idiot..
RE: Federal Building
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:24 PM
Congratulations Micheal, Your little "grassroots" effort has cost this country and this city dearly. You have succeeded in inconveniencing all of those citizens who do not share your view. You have succeeded in closing done the administration of justice (the fedreal courts have offices and court rooms in those buildings). You have caused an alreay cash-strapped city to spend more on public safety (e.g. police overtime). And you have likely inflicted some emotional distress on those people who live with a real fear of these activities erupting inot some form of altracation in the streets or some terrorist like activity. Adn think of all the smog that you have caused by inducing gridlock with all f those people leaving at times other than their scheduled end of the day. ANd guess what, no one is doing it becasue of some new found respect for your cause. All they know is that you scare them (and you probably smell bad too).
re: re: get a clue
by Brian
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:26 PM
artriotmedia@aol.com
Actualy, I've got a job interview tomorow. I've only been unemployed for the last 6 months. Prior to that I hadn't been unemployed for the last 2 years. I actualy have been self employed for the last 6 months doing web and graphic design. My last boss told me that it was "a pleasure to have me working for him and will glady give me the best recomendation he can". So, stop making assumptions. Who knows, I might be in a cubicle next too you someday.
Yawn
by cj
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:26 PM
I'm against the war. That said, I don't see how disrupting the evening rush with a "human snake" is going to do anything to promote my ideas. The majority of the American people support action against Iraq. If you want to change their minds, educate them. Don't piss them, and everyone else off, by attacking THEIR right to live freely. You're just going to convince them that the peace movement is populated solely by a bunch of aggressive, jobless fools.
Use candles. Carry signs. Sing songs. Don't become the enemy by infringing the rights of others.
"congratulations che"
by li..
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:30 PM
congratulations che because of violent idiots like you i lost my relative in WTC attack on 9/11.. as you cannot think of any democratic solutions, killers and murderes like you have made our lives miserable.
Not about liberation
by Sam
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:32 PM
This war has nothing to do with liberating Iraqis. Placing them under a military dictatorship for decades will not bring them democracy.
Many of the same people in the current administration played roles in instituting "regime change" in Chile, Iran, and Nicaragua, supporting Pinochet, the Shah, and Somoza, among many other brutal dictators. Our Northern Alliance allies in Afghansitan have a worse human rights record (per capita) than Saddam. There's absolutely no reason to believe Bush will actually follow through with his promise of eventual democracy. Just look at Afghanistan: we've all but abandoned the country. The rules of the Taliban government have slowly returned. Women are still raped and prohibited from going to school. There's no stable government. Warlords govern large parts of the country, and the people starve and suffer. Bush "forgot" to put Afghan humanitarian aid in this year's budget. We can't trust this administration (or *any* administration, really).
No one's defending Saddam. We *are* defending the many innocent civilians who may be killed, and we are defending the right of the Iraqi people to self-determination. It's sheer American arrogance to think we have the right to impose any form of government on another people. Yes, Saddam should be overthrown -- but not be Americans. That's the right and duty of the Iraqi people. It's also their right -- not that of Americans -- to determine what kind of government to put in place of Saddam's.
Furthermore, the potential damage resulting from humanitarian crises, increased terrorism, and the mass regional instability that could result from this venture far outweighs the cost of letting a tyrant (one of many) stay in power.
Bill Allen: you're obviously a right-wing talk radio fan. Try thinking for yourself. There *were* protests against Clinton's wars. I was opposed to most of them.
In any case, difference for many people is that 1.) many of these actions were not wars, but peacekeeping missions 2.) they had widespread support internationally and in the UN 3.) they didn't threaten to supercharge terrorist recruiting, endanger Americans, or destabilize the region on nearly as big a scale as this war. Another big difference is the fact that *since* those wars happened, there's been a rebirth of protest in this country (the turning point was the WTO ministerial in Seattle in 1999).
And yes, Che, Iraq has defied the will of the United Nations. On numerous occasions, so have we (this war providing the most glaring example). Israel, Turkey, and Morocco all violate UN resolutions flagrantly, yet there's no call to invade them. In fact, when anyone moves to enforce these resolutions, the U.S. employs its veto power. Violation of UN resolutions is not a sufficient justification for invasion
Liberals, leftists, and..the Pope?
by employed, educated, and anti-war
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:39 PM
Just a few notes...
1) Not everyone who is against this war is uneducated or unemployed. I am reading far too many
"get a job" or "read a book"-type of comments posted here. I am employed full time in my
profession, I have a college degree and am currently going back to school full time to achieve
another. I am also against this was. Which brings me to my next point...
2) Just because someone is against this war does not mean that they support Saddam or any
other vicious dictator and their actions.
3) Not everyone against this war is a Liberal, Socialist, Anarchist, Leftist, etc. I hardly think the
Pope, who has been speaking out against this war for sometime is neither a Liberal, an
anarchist, leftist........and so on. All of the people out there slamming others for their anti-war
beliefs dont seem to have anything against the Pope, calling him childish names and saying
that he is uneducated. Is there something else lying under the surface that is bothering these
people about those who are against this war?
Name calling, finger pointing is not going to get anything accomplished. This war is becoming a huge dividing force between the supporters and opponents. Im afraid to imagine what the outcome of this catastophe will be.
unbelievable
by k fisher
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:40 PM
I am so tired of you quixotic liberals. Get a grip and join the real world will ya .You claim to be champions of human rights and the voice of the oppressed and downtrodden. You claim a person can be against a war to remove one of the most flagitious human beings to ever live, and simultaneously not support the aforesaid tyrant. Your logic breaks down. We are back in Kansas again Dorthy. The choices are mutually exclusive. If we pack up and leave, he remains. Stronger and more dangerous than ever.
You can't have it both ways, no matter how you try and spin this. Reject one and the othere IS choosen by default. For once in your life give up your anti american platform and accept the inevitable. THe majority of people (in this country) support the President you so disrespectfully and malciously slander. May God be with him and our troops today and may he grant a quick and decisive end to this war with minimal casualties on both sides. Of course if that does happen George Bush would become more popular than any President in recent history. That would probably be just unbearable to some one like you. Another one of those mutually exclusive choices your going to have to wrestle with. Good luck, enjoy your life in Canada.
Sam
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:42 PM
SAm,
The currently efective UN Resolution 1441 specifically authorizes the use of military force. We are not violating it. Furhtermore, why the hell should we have hung around debating wiht the rude and obnoxious French. SO what if we got them to go along wiht this action, it woudl only have meant that we went into this action with the Franch (as opposed to without them, which is alwasy beter when going to war).
Also...
by Sam
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:43 PM
While I feel that it is exclusively the right of the Iraqi people to overthrow their government, I think it's appropriate for outside forces to step up the pressure on Saddam. How?
First, bring him before the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity.
Second, send many more international human rights observers to Iraq.
Third, place a semi-permanent team of inspectors in Iraq. Have them monitor everything that is shipped in and out of Iraq using chemical sensors and other equipment to monitor WMD. Allow constant overflight.
RE: Liberals Leftists and the Pope
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:45 PM
SOrry. I shoudl ahve known that you and the Pope were employed in your respective professions. However, I expect the Pope to oppose any war (at least since the end of the Crusades). I just don't expect that he woudl be for holding up traffic or otherwise inconveniencing the fine citizens of our Metropolis.
RE: Congratulations Che"
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:53 PM
Sorry for your loss. That was indeed an unnecessary and tragic day. However, where do you even get to the idea that anyone here, or anyone sharing my political philosophy casued that tragedy. The next thing you will be blaming Isreal and a cabal of Jewish bankers. I am sorry that your relative died, truly I am. BUt you have to be a complete imbecile to think that those acts of terrorism agaisnt the US are in anyway justified or caused by the US. The Islamists want the death of all Western Culture and the destruction of America. And that does nto mean that destruction of our political regime, it means the death of our people. It is hatred and rascism pure and simple. ANd guys like Saddam and the Taliban foster adn promote this hatred and rracism.
re: liberals leftists and the pope
by Brian
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:53 PM
artriotmedia@aol.com
pope woudn't advocate civil disobedience? EVer heard of Dorothy Day or the Catholic Worker movement? Think Christ rushing into the temple calling the money changers hypocrytes and tossing things around wasn't a similar form of civil disobedience? Civil disobedience is a concept rooted in Christianity as well as pacifism, despite the cries for war of fundamentalists like Jerry Fawell and Pat Robertson(who realy are just the christian equivalent of Bin Laden, both sides are seeking a theocracy). Alot of the people planning to be arrested are taking part in faith based civil disobedience, note the word "faith".
che and saddam are two sides of the same coin
by peace
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:55 PM
oh sorry i missed it that barbaric che and saddam are two sides of the same coin-- violent brutal beasts
ok if you want to split hairs
by Troy Shelley (Cooke)
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:57 PM
axelfear@yahoo.com
To Che:
As a member of the Cherokee Nations, I say:
Get the fuck out of our country
Love
Troy
"Rainbird"
www.geocities.com/axelfear/axel_fear
Che
by Sam
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:58 PM
1441 does not specifically authorize the use of military force. In fact, the very reason 1441 *exists* in its current form is *because* it doesn't authorize force. The U.S. originally wanted a clause that automatically authrorized force. The other Security Council countries wouldn't have it. So they settled on a compromise, 1441, which did *not* authorize force. If it had authorized force, the other countries wouldn't have agreed to it.
The UN Charter is the law. If we don't respect it, we're violating the law. Technically, the UN could authorize the use of force to get U.S. forces to withdraw from Iraq. Acting without UN mandate is also arguably an impeachable offense.
By acting without this mandate, we're sending a message that UN commitments don't really matter. Countries will initiate wars, and say that since the U.S. doesn't respect the UN, they don't have too, either. Why shouldn't Lebanon invade Israel? Why shouldn't China attack Taiwan?
The French are rude and arrogant? Hey, Rummy's the one who referred to *them* as "old Europe". Either way, though, it's totally inappropriate to characterize an entire group of people in a certain way based on your personal perceptions, especially when those perceptions have been shaped by the warped reportage of the corporate media. It's what you call ethnocentrism, and it's something you're supposed to avoid when analyizing these problems.
RE: Barbaric Che
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:00 PM
I woudl liek to thank the Academy for this award, but I really couldn't have done it with the Directorate General, Saddam Hussein. THis award really belongs to him.
Look, war sucks. War is barbaric. THak God that we have improved on the process of delivering munitions so that collateral damage is significantly lessened. In fact, I do feel bad abotu that poor girl in the picture with those bruises and scraped knees and shins, but what about the benevolent Saddam that you wnat to keep in power...he would do more than that to her and her family. Maybe you shoudl give this award to Saddma. Send him and email with a link to this page. Or better yet, send him and email with a link to a page showing a young girl, or boy, or old woman after a suicide murder bombing in Isreal, made possible with Saddam's money. Now that might actually do more for your cause of peace.
imbecile che
by peace
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:00 PM
oh my my islamists are racist while the US is non-racist. surely you are braindead to think that way. you idiot do you know that kind of atrocities US has inflicted in Middle East and Latin American. DO YOU FUCKING KNOW...
Wouldn't it be nice?
by One Voice
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:01 PM
Isn�t it nice that you live in a country which values personal freedoms? The same can not be said for the native Iraqi people, they live under a brutal totalitarian regime that cares nothing for personal freedoms.
I would like to take offense with some of the baseless suppositions and erroneous �facts� espoused in your article.
First, let us address the claim that we have an illegitimate leader in the person of President Bush. What you, and many of your supporters, fail to acknowledge is that we live in a representative republic, NOT a democracy. This country�s founding fathers were very specific when it came to framing the Constitution. The historical basis for the Governmental structure is that of Rome, not Greece. Get over the fact that your candidate did not win in the last election. Everyone can not be happy after an election between two or more people�there is bound to be someone upset by the outcome. What makes this country special is that we have traditionally moved on after every election. So you did not get your desired result�grow up and move on! As a result of the process which allows you to state your views openly, we have a Chief Executive in the person of George Bush.
Second, please try to be a little better informed before you promote yourselves as enlightened individuals. I have spoken to people from Iraq and they are some of the biggest supporters of regime change. They know first hand the atrocities that this tyrant has committed. Saddam and his sons have put live human beings in industrial shredders! If there was no more evidence, that alone would be enough! But wait, there�s more! The current regime has also worked to eradicate an entire group of people, the Kurds. Sounds a lot like another 20th century dictator, doesn�t it?
Finally, the largest glaring fact that you have seemed to have overlooked is this�THERE WOULD BE NO WAR BUT FOR SADDAM! He has had the opportunity to leave, he will not. He has been told by the world community to disarm, he has not.
No one wants to see war, but given the decisions made by Saddam Hussein and his regime, a conflict was unavoidable. It would be folly to think that these comments could sway you and your supporters, but you need to hear the truth. If you want to march in protest of something, how about marching in protest of the atrocities perpetrated by Saddam Hussein? Protest the fact that he did not disarm peacefully. Protest the fact that he did not leave his position of tyranny peacefully. If he is so beloved by the general Iraqi populace, why would he not impose self-exile to avoid war only to be brought back when the Iraqi people were given the right of self-determination for their government?
Catholic CD
by Sam
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:02 PM
Also, the Church was a big supporter of Solidarity in Poland.
Trying to Help
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:04 PM
>
> >Trying To Help - by Dennis Miller
> >
> >All the rhetoric on whether or not we should go to war against Iraq has
> >got my insane little brain spinning like a roulette wheel. I enjoy reading
> >opinions from both sides but I have detected a hint of confusion from some
> >of you.
> >
> >As I was reading the paper recently, I was reminded of the best advice
> >someone ever gave me. He told me about the "KISS" method (Keep It Simple,
> >Stupid!) So, with this as a theme, I'd like to apply this theory for those
> >who don't quite get it. My hope is that we can simplify things a bit and
> >recognize a few important facts.
> >
> >Here are 10 things to consider when voicing an opinion on this important
> >issue:
> >
> >1) Between President Bush and Saddam Hussein ... Hussein is the bad guy.
> >
> >2) If you have faith in the United Nations to do the right thing keep this
> >in mind, they have Libya heading the committee on human rights and Iraq
> >heading the global disarmament committee. Do your own math here.
> >
> >3) If you use google search and type in "French military victories," your
> >reply will be "did you mean French military defeats?"
> >
> >4) If your only anti-war slogan is "no war for oil," sue your school
> >district for allowing you to slip through the cracks and robbing you of
> >the education you deserve.
> >
> >5) Saddam and Bin Laden will not seek United Nations approval before they
> >try to kill us.
> >
> >6) Despite common belief, Martin Sheen is not the president. He plays one
> >on TV.
> >
> >7) Even if you are anti-war, you are still an "infidel!" And Bin Laden
> >wants you dead, too.
> >
> >8) If you believe in a "vast right-wing conspiracy" but not in the danger
> >that Hussein poses, quit hanging out with the Dell computer dude.
> >
> >9) We are not trying to liberate them.
> >
> >10) Whether you are for military action or against it, our young men and
> >women overseas are fighting for us to defend our right to speak out. We
> >all need to support them without reservation.
> >
> >I hope this helps.
BRAINDEAD CHE
by PEACE ON EARTH
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:05 PM
YOU SURELY ARE BRAINDEAD TO THINK (AFTER ALL THIS DISCUSSION) THAT WE SUPPORT SADDAM. AFTER ALL THE IMPORTANT POINTS THAT SAM HAS MADE YOU STILL DO NOT THINK. WE ARE NOT FOR SADDAM BUT FOR A DEMOCRATIC SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM WITH THE HELP OF UN.
re: Sam
by casey c.
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:06 PM
Furhtermore, why the hell should we have hung around debating wiht the rude and obnoxious French.
Okay...perhaps you could try defending your viewpoint with something other than stereotypes without basis or substance? How mature...
SO what if we got them to go along wiht this action...
So what? Well, it would show that we are willing to "practice what we preach" -- democracy. If we're fighting to liberate the people of Iraq and give them a just, democratic government, maybe we should show that we too have a respect of democracy. After all, the U.N. has been a democratic body from the get-go. If we approve so much of democracy, why is the fact that the majority in the U.N. opposes our war so hard to swallow?
GOOGLE SEARCH
by PEACE
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:10 PM
WHEN YOU TYPE GEORGE BUSH ON GOOGLE IT WILL ASK YOU DID YOU MEAN SADDAM HUSSEIN
RE: Imbecile Che
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:13 PM
I didn't say that the US is pure on the issue of race, but the US doesn't have any policy which states that we need to kill an entire race of people. However, the Islamist philosophy is based upon an Islamic domination of things not now Islamic. Unless you are a practicing Muslim (and even if you are, but are not the right type) then that includes you. As for US oppression in the middle east...What the F are you talking about. I can't possibly oppres anyoen while paying them out my rearend for gas and oil. Besides, they do a damn fine job of oppressing themselves. And don't even give me any of that "Zionist Oppresser" CowCrap. Yaser Arafat (Nobel Peace PRize Winner) and Saddam are trying to kill ever Jew in the middle east, adn it is the Jews that are the oppresers?
And a final thought, Peace. I would remind you that no one would respect peace if we didn't have war.
TO Rainbird
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:21 PM
I might get out of yoru country, but my ancestors were brought here agaisnt their will and I have kind of been stuck here. However, I was unaware that the American Indian was responsible for the development of hte strongest western economy and democracy. I know htat many areas of North America were populated by several indigneous peoples, wiht little formal governance and often given to extended periods of war and genocide bordering on racism. However, if you are responsible for the evolutijno of American representative democracy, I thank you.
I say it again, for those who missed it.
by One Voice
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:21 PM
Isn�t it nice that you live in a country which values personal freedoms? The same can not be said for the native Iraqi people, they live under a brutal totalitarian regime that cares nothing for personal freedoms.
I would like to take offense with some of the baseless suppositions and erroneous �facts� espoused in your article.
First, let us address the claim that we have an illegitimate leader in the person of President Bush. What you, and many of your supporters, fail to acknowledge is that we live in a representative republic, NOT a democracy. This country�s founding fathers were very specific when it came to framing the Constitution. The historical basis for the Governmental structure is that of Rome, not Greece. Get over the fact that your candidate did not win in the last election. Everyone can not be happy after an election between two or more people�there is bound to be someone upset by the outcome. What makes this country special is that we have traditionally moved on after every election. So you did not get your desired result�grow up and move on! As a result of the process which allows you to state your views openly, we have a Chief Executive in the person of George Bush.
Second, please try to be a little better informed before you promote yourselves as enlightened individuals. I have spoken to people from Iraq and they are some of the biggest supporters of regime change. They know first hand the atrocities that this tyrant has committed. Saddam and his sons have put live human beings in industrial shredders! If there was no more evidence, that alone would be enough! But wait, there�s more! The current regime has also worked to eradicate an entire group of people, the Kurds. Sounds a lot like another 20th century dictator, doesn�t it?
Finally, the largest glaring fact that you have seemed to have overlooked is this�THERE WOULD BE NO WAR BUT FOR SADDAM! He has had the opportunity to leave, he will not. He has been told by the world community to disarm, he has not.
No one wants to see war, but given the decisions made by Saddam Hussein and his regime, a conflict was unavoidable. It would be folly to think that these comments could sway you and your supporters, but you need to hear the truth. If you want to march in protest of something, how about marching in protest of the atrocities perpetrated by Saddam Hussein? Protest the fact that he did not disarm peacefully. Protest the fact that he did not leave his position of tyranny peacefully. If he is so beloved by the general Iraqi populace, why would he not impose self-exile to avoid war only to be brought back when the Iraqi people were given the right of self-determination for their government?
OH MY MY HOW INTELLIGENT CHE
by PEACE
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:22 PM
SO IF THAT IS "YOUR" PHILOSOPHY THAT "NO PEACE WITHOUT WAR" THEN YOU MIGHT BE FEELING EXTREMELY "AT PEACE" [SIC] NOW WHILE IRAQIS ARE DYING...
PLEASURES OF A CANNIBAL ...
lessons
by jwg
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:23 PM
Oh lets see here...
first of all, Dennis Miller didn't write that, and even if he did, you let Dennis Miller tell you what to think?
Second of all I fit all of the following categories:
I am against the war.
I have not been unemployed 1 day since leaving college
I am not a leftist or liberal
I am not a conservative
I do not have unwashed hair.
I do not support Saddam Hussein
I do not support George Bush (either one)
I do not support the office of president ever.
I do not believe in Political parties.
I do not belive in nationalism
or patriotism.
Stop name calling, and threats and all that bullshit. Explain how killing is good on either side of the coin? Do two wrongs make a right? If Saddam is killing, do we need to kill twice as many to know that we are right?
Call me unamerican- say whetever you'd like. This country was created by people violently overthrowing their government because they we're being taxed by a government that did not represent the people. Hmmm... sounds familiar.
Let the rich have their war, if spoiled brats who've never had to work a day in their life wanna slap each other around, go for it! But stop using the lower classes to do your bidding.
RE: Casey
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:25 PM
The French are rude and obnoxious. Of course they are, they alwasy have been. Have you ever been to France? Then you woudl understand that, outsideof some of the rural areas in Normandy and near Loire, they are just plain rude. They let garbage sit on the streets. They let their dogs poop on the sidewalks. And they charge $5.00 for a reall tiny cup of coffee.
jobless mindless cannibalistic immigrant che
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:26 PM
get the fuck out of this forum che
A Quick Plea to the Judgemental
by Dan Kyle
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:29 PM
I am currently on the clock and working. As I am a social worker, helping families who are desperately in need of the social services whose budgets are being cut to finance this war, I will rant with a quickness.
Obviously a great number of left activists are not at a computer today: They are organizing. They are making sure thousands of Pittsburghhers represent thier beliefs and educating those wh are in need of solace. In short, they are doing their part to bring the truth to the international community: The majority of people in the United Staes cannot tolerate the actions of this administration.
By demonstrating today, I hope the International community is strengthened by the nationwide actions of the people of the United States. Many countries knowingly commited the equivalent of economic suicide by standing up against the United States, and they did it because of strong morals. In the nearly fifty year history of the UN, never before has the international community stood against the economic power of the U.S. I am not saying Kennedy, Nixon, Reagan, and yes, even Clinton didn't commit terrible crimes against humanity. They did. Activists are not blind to this. However, that at this moment the UN has finally stood its ground in the face of US tyrranical colonialism of poor countries is significant: International diplomacy, or lack thereof by the corporate funded U.S. officials, cannot go unchecked.
In turn, ask economic experts and they will tell you: this war is not about a tyrant who kills his people. Yesterday's bombing alone has killed far more than Saddam has in the past 12 years. Mistreatment of Kurds? The sanctions have killed an estimated 150,000 through starvation and denial of medical supplies.
This war is about money and cheap gas, which is FAR from garenteed, even with victory. Maybe this will unite Europe financially in the face of our nations tyrrany. Maybe the rest of the world will start using teh Euro as the international standard for interest-free transactions (the dollar is used now, THE ONLY REASON we can run such high deficits) which will devestate our economy. You think $20 barrels of feul will save us? Not when we need to pay exchange rates to the Euro. This is exactly what international solidarity against the U.S. may bring.
Rant all you want, but if you do not research the risks of this unilateral war against a practically unarmed nation, expect 9-11 to be the first of many actions against the biggest enemy of the world: our own country. Its not too late to change our international policy, however. That is exacty why the U.S. Left does not move to France: this is our home, which we love. We love this country like the origional patriots, who recognized the tyrrany of thier leadership and took a stand against them. Now WE must stand agaisnt tyrrany. See you at 5 today. See you on the streets until we finally find ourselves in a civilized nation.
-Peace
idiotic pooint
by ...h
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:30 PM
che "The French are rude and obnoxious. Of course they are, they alwasy have been. Have you ever been to France? Then you woudl understand that, outsideof some of the rural areas in Normandy and near Loire, they are just plain rude. They let garbage sit on the streets. They let their dogs poop on the sidewalks. And they charge $5.00 for a reall tiny cup of coffee."
how can you give such idiotic argument?
To the nameless one
by One Voice
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:31 PM
Why is it that whenever someone disagrees with your view, you resort to belligerent rhetoric? I thought this was a free forum of debate. What's the matter? Can't you handle an intelligent argument?
freedom comes with responsibility
by love
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:35 PM
mr one voice
freedom always comes with responsiblity and not mindlessness.
talking about french as not clean or selling expensive coffee has nothing to do with war.
hope you see the point
Putting Pittsburgh at Risk
by Anonymous
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:38 PM
It seems that by this so-called "civil" protest, you are putting your own city at risk. Have you thought about the fundamental issues involved? What if Pittsburgh were to become a target? Emergency vehicles would need to get through. Panic would ensue. By "shutting down" downtown, and snarling traffic, you could be contributing to a larger catastrophe.
No one likes war, but in my opinion, we have no choice. Protest all you want, but do it peacefully, and in a contained area. That's what areas like Market Square are for. Don't put the lives of your fellow citizens at risk. Wake up!
To Love
by One Voice
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:38 PM
I never said anything about the French. You have me confused.
ok clarification
by love
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:41 PM
i was refering to che..
RE: Lessons
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:42 PM
I would certainly rather let Dennis Miller advise us on foreign policy than Janeane Garofolo.
RESIST RESIST RESIST
by ......
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:43 PM
WHILE ONE MAN SMILES [SIC] THE WORLD MOURNS...
CRY SCREAM SHOUT WEEP REVOLT RESIST THIS BLOODY WAR...
Simple FACT
by pjd
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:46 PM
FACT: The united states and it's compliant (until now) puppet the UN-SC has killed many more Iraqis than Saddam has killed Iraqis.
Wish I could be like you....
by an unwashed hippie
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:50 PM
Where were all of you when the big bad American oppressors enacted regime change in Bosnia? I don�t remember threats of traffic tie-ups or civil disobedience then? Where were all the hippies then? I guess you were all busy with the �Legitimate President� getting BJs and not inhaling. No double standard there at all.
Re Lessons
by jwg
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:50 PM
Che- then your still an idiot.
make your own decisions and choose your own path. Don't listen to Mr. Miller os Ms. Garafolo. And try to make some sense once in a while
also
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 2:50 PM
we must not forget the depleted uranium used by US troops in the Gulf War I. For more info on this read Robert Fisk's articles in http://www.zmag.org and even CNN carried a program on this 10 days ago. they interviewed the gulf war veterans exposed to radiation
Peace on earth
by K Fisher
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:09 PM
Once again, Peace, it is you who are Brain Dead. Che is right. While you and the U.N. apply your philosophy of gentle coercion Iraqis continue to be slaughtered by this psychopath. If 300,000 troops parked on his border threatening to kill him wasn't enough to pursuade him to disarm, logically it follows, nothing short of that could have been expected to have any different outcome. The guy has to go, he is too dangerous. Stay at home and support our soldiers even if you can't get behind the cause. You will be a better person for it
SEMPER FI
Where did everyone go?
by One Voice
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:09 PM
So what's up? Did we just stop discussing things or did school let out?
RE: THe Rude French
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:15 PM
I can use arguments like this becasue, not picvking up yor garbage, letting your dog poop on hte sidewalk and overcharging for a little cup of coffe is rude.
RE: JWG
by CHE
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:18 PM
So I'm an idiot? You're calling me an idiot? Well, you're a poopyhead adn your mother dresses you funny. So there.
Have any of you seen war?
by Knuckle Dragging Barbarian
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:18 PM
How may of you protesters have seen war? Have any of you protesters ever been in the military? Have relatives that have been in the military? Or, who have had relatives that sacrificed their lives during a war? (And I do not only mean the military)
During WWII Pittsburgh was the leading steel producer for the war. Our Father and Grandfathers worked in those steel mills that are no longer here. Our Mother and Grandmothers worked in factories, shops, and at home to support their husbands and fathers.
Now for each of you who are going to protest, you are spitting on their work, their sweat, their blood, their pride, and their honor.
When you are finished with your �UN-American� protest (not meaning that protesting is un-American � But that this protest is) remember to go home and call your Mother, Father, Grandmother, and Grandfather and tell them that you love them and thank them for supporting this great country that they supported with their lives. Then tell them what you did today and tell them how you spit on all of their hard work. And just for good measure, why don�t you stop by an AM-Vets Hospital and tell all those how happy you are that they are suffering for you. Remember that those brave military men and women over there are working so you can have a voice, to denounce what they are fighting for � YOU.
braindead k fisher
by peace
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:21 PM
brain dead fisher if you have time go through the important points made on this forum. why has this guy become dangerous since september 2002 for mr "president" and for you? that is when bush started to make iraq an issue (bush did not say that we need to "save" iraq but that iraq was having links with al qaeda, only now he emphasized the supposed "freedom" of iraqis). if your brain is not fully dead then THINK about this. also do not forget the "supposed freedom" that bush offered afghanistan. read some arguments carefully on this forum esp the one about the interview with the president of National Alliance and then REFLECT..
oh my my.. knuckle dragging barbarian
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:26 PM
please get drafted. that is the best way to thank your parents who probably didnt have a choice but to work in factories indirectly involved with war. i am sure your parents will be proud of your cannibalism
RE: Braindead Liberal Losers
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:27 PM
Okay, who cares when the guy became dangerous, it only matters that he is dangerous. And we need to get rid of him. Haul his hairy ass out of his palace, roll him around in the street, give him a wedgy and set his underwear on fire.
THe regime change in Iraq is a very important first step to imposing peace in the middle east, as well as getting the other despots in the world in line. With Saddam out of hte picture a major source of funding for the PLO dries up. THen, and ONLY THEN< can we hope of a negotiated peace in Isreal. And the others in the region who think they can get away with their duplicitous treatment of the US in its efforts to quell international terrorism will now have to know that, as they say in Texas, "we ain't just countin' chickens here."
what a naive optimist you are che
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:33 PM
surely if saddam goes there will be peace in palestine and middleeast and all the oil will be in your backyard and osama will surrender. what baseless arguments you have been making throughtout this forum..
TO the Nameless Ignoramus
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:39 PM
It is not baseless at all. If you spent more time actually studying the geo-poilitics of the region (rather than just yappin' your trap to hear yourself scream at some "rally") then you would understand that a democratic Iraq is important to this peace process. And it will keep the rest of the Arab World from always using the redherring of "Peace In Palestine Before we Deal with the other issues."
I'll let you go now so you can catch the bus to the downtown hate rally. I will look for you cheering on your man Saddam.
Che...you just don't get it
by Unwashed hippie
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:41 PM
Che you seem to miss the mark again. We as Leftist, liberal, anarchists love Saddam. He has done so many great things we admire. He has slaughtered his own countryman in vile ways (we wish we could do that here, we would love to get our hand on that illegitimate leader of ours), he has financed killing of Jews (who we all know run the corporate structure of this country), he has mocked the U.N. for 12 years. Heck he has even killed members of his own family (lord knows I would love to get a good shot in on my American parents). So you see Che we don�t want to over through Saddam, he has done so many things we wish we could do.
good golly
by susyzimzel
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:44 PM
susyzimzel@yahoo.com
regarding che's message " imposing peace in the middle east"...imposing peace? Is that something that can be imposed? We don't even have peace in our own country at the moment, so how can anyone expect that a military can impose peace on a nation half a world away? Instead of channeling all of this money so that GWB & friends can get their hands on oil, why can't our country instead use the money for domestic purposes? AND...if GWB was so concerned about soldiers, then why does he want to slash funding to veterans by millions and millions of dollars? GWB doesn't care about people, but he's apparently a damn good liar because many in this nation believe him...
proud of your cannibalism
by Knuckle Dragging Barbarian
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:44 PM
If you hadn�t noticed the �draft� has been discontinued. The brave men and women who are now part of our armed forces enlisted willingly. They have the respect of all Americans. By thanking my parents - well, I do that every day by being the best person who I can be. They did have a choice where they wanted to work but unlike you and your kind they choose to support America and not show disrespect. And for your information �cannibalism� is the eating of your own species. I am not a cannibal. I am a proud AMERICAN who will support this country and it�s brave military men and women.
BTW � you should really mark the �name� field so I would know which ignorant, ungrateful, wish he would be deported, person I am dealing with.
oh my studious che
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:45 PM
whats in a name you idiot?
how "well educated" you are that everybody who has been on this forum knows. you pull all the arguments through your ass like bush.. and by the way you go and enjoy your "peace" watching TV but sadly enough you might not feel "peace" as the mainstream media will not show you the human face of the war ..
right unwashed hippie
by ...h
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:50 PM
Che...you just don't get it
by Unwashed hippie � Thursday March 20, 2003 at 03:41 PM
"Che you seem to miss the mark again. We as Leftist, liberal, anarchists love Saddam. He has done so many great things we admire. He has slaughtered his own countryman in vile ways (we wish we could do that here, we would love to get our hand on that illegitimate leader of ours), he has financed killing of Jews (who we all know run the corporate structure of this country), he has mocked the U.N. for 12 years. Heck he has even killed members of his own family (lord knows I would love to get a good shot in on my American parents). So you see Che we don�t want to over through Saddam, he has done so many things we wish we could do. "
right winger che doesnt have to get it because he and you are in the same boat. surely the american government has been oh so clean and good right? 4000 civilians dead in afghanistan and the iraqi civilian killings have just begun... oh so clean and good and just..
yes, I have had relative who have fought in war...
by jwg
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:54 PM
and all of them say that is the absolute wrong way to go about things.
Plain and simple. There is never an us vs. them war. it is alway the rich clearing out the lower eschelons of society. George, Osama, Saddam... all spoiled rich kids playing war games with the lives of our brother and sisters. Nothing will change till we burn the bastards out
Two points
by Dan Kyle
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:55 PM
1. On the right wing posts: Why do you ignore the facts Sam and others are presenting? Do you find yourselves incapable of responding to facts? Obviously someone who signs SEMPER FI after thier name is not reading these posts with an open mind. If anyone on the internet today IS open-minded, consider this:
2. On traffic congestion: This does not put someone behind the wheel at risk for anything. There is no violence expected in this protest on the part of demonstrators. Try getting cluster bombs dropped on your town even though you personally have no money, barely surviving starvation and are not a threat to anyone. Now that is a risky existence. How about angering the international community to the point where Egypt overthrows the American Embassy (happened this morning). VERY risky. I hope Bush realizes that the risk has only increased since this began last night. We will soon dream of the days that Iraq and its few kilograms of fertilizer ingredients were our biggest concern.
We are supporting the U.S. citizens through these protests, trying to keep the unimaginable from happening: The US unilateral war being equated to the unilateral actions of Japan and Germany in the 1940s.
We are supporting the troops by trying to keep them out of a firing squad. A hell most people on the internet today will never know or comprehend. The great majority of those in the armed forces are there because of economic conditions. They did not enlist to fight: they enlisted to drag themselves out of the poverty that the wealthy businesses WHO HAVE ARRANGED FOR THIS WAR created. I will never forget the brave fatigue-clad African-American soldier who called out from his white pickup to anti-war demonstrators last Sunday, calling for us to keep it up. He was overjoyed that we cared enough to keep him out of harm's way.
Another world is possible.
oh my my you surely have a "name" you barbarian that you can be proud of..
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:55 PM
stupid threats of deportation... you fool if you respect your country what are you doing on indymedia take the next plane to baghdad..
Idiot Peace
by Marines
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:56 PM
While you and your "cival disobediant" Tree huggin', save the whales losers are parading around in your underware like the bunch of self-important freaks. tying up our public servants with all your irrelavant whining: an actual terrorist attack no matter how remote could happen. GO HOME FREAKS!!!!!!!
RE: My Studious Nameless Ignoramus
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:56 PM
And now for my next trick...watch me pull a bush out of my ass.
What war have you seen? What terrorist has tried to attack you? When have you been set upon just because of your skin color, religion or just because you looked like you had some undesirable skin color or religious belief. I have been there. I doubt you have. I have been half a block away when teh hand grenade was thrown into the doorway of the Synagogue. I have been there when the police wiht their uzis had to subdue your type (peace loving Palestinians that is) so they didn't kill me or anyone else that just wanted to walk to class. I have also been there when the police force of a tyranical regime pulled out the baton and attempted to hit a friend (a woman nonetheless) for not promptly showing her "papers" (she was asleep at the time so her response time was a little slow). And I was the one that reached forward to grab the baton before he could do anydamage (and almost got killed in the process). SO when I say the guy must go, I have some (probably more useful) frame of reference and experience than I suspect you do. Where you are attracted by teh fashion of the protest (and probably the easy sex that goes with such events .. if only free bathing where also in fashion amongst your crowd), I have actualy had to think about htese issues at the true loss of my own freedom (and access to any sex .. and bathing). If it were not for America, and if it were not for this President, the world woudl be at far greater risk today 9as opposed to the anecdotal rsks that the immediate area of Baghdad is experiencing today).
stop your rant marines
by peace
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 3:59 PM
stop your rant marine and join the marines..
Clean Govs...
by an unwashed hippie
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:02 PM
No I don't think the USA is a "clean" country. I hate these "corporate pigs� that supply jobs and the highest living standards in the world. I hate that I live in freedom. I long for the days of the truly great governments headed by my heroes, Hitler, Pot, Stalin. I get so sick and tired of living without oppression. When will the Soviet Union rise back out of the sea and squash this pathetic, self-righteous, country that dare to release others from �despot dictators�?
all the more reason for you to join the peace movement...
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:04 PM
if you have seen war (dont assume that i havent) then there is all the more reason for you to struggle for peace in non-violent ways.
If...
by susyzimzel
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:04 PM
susyzimzel@yahoo.com
If it weren't for this president, we wouldn't be in this mess.
your wait for dictatorship has ended dear unwashed hippie..
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:07 PM
congratulations your wait for dictatorhip has ended. herr bush is in power..
Unilateral War?
by One Voice
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:09 PM
Last count had the number of countries in the coalition at over 40. The last time I checked, 40 is a little greater than 1.
Wrong Agains Suzyzimzel
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:10 PM
If it were not for Saddam Hussein (and his French friends, the Coneheads) we woudl not be in this mess. ALso, maybe if the Clinton Administration had taken the threats of Osama B.L. seriously we wouldnt be in this mess. Or also, maybe, if Bill Clinton had actually paid attention to the issues of Isreal and the PLO rather than just looking for a good photo-op we wouldn't be inthis mess. This PResident jsut has to clean it up. DO you think that if we did nothing it woudl all go away and we woudl find ourselves back in Kansas?
wrong again che
by dll..
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:14 PM
if it was not for oil we wouldnt be in this mess..
ha!
by susyzimzel
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:16 PM
That is such a joke, che. Of course there are plenty of things that need improving. Wanting peace without war does not mean that there aren't problems that need fixing, I.E. our gov't needs to stop picking and choosing which dictators they want to back (we gave Iraq all that help against Iran back in the day...) and which they want to destroy. Also, we need to stop humiliating the Arab world day in and day out and then acting all surprised when they hate us. And, even though France is an easy target for you to pick on, and freedom fucking fries are a real crowd pleaser, you just have to accept that France doesn't have to kiss America's ass and that is perfectly fine. When the US Empire (see also Pax Americana) crumbles, I certainly hope we have some real allies left, instead of letting Donald Rumsfeld and Crew insult them when we really need their support.
Finally....
by an unwashed hippie
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:19 PM
So G.W. Bush is the same as Hitler, Pot, Stalin? When 2 million American lie in mass graves I�ll buy that. Till then lets praise the great Saddam!!!! Now there is a guy that knows how to run a county! Millions of people starving while he lives in extreme opulence (oh, wait it�s not Saddam, it�s the American oppressors U.N. sanctions killing millions of Iraqis). No welfare programs in Iraq, no social security, no medicare , why waste money there, he has VX nerve gas to stockpile, nukes to build. Down with G.W. the �unelected�. All hail Saddam the great dictator!!! Remind me again�.do you vote for dictator?
RE: Al the More Reason..
by CHE
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:19 PM
Actually, Nameless Ignoramus, my experiences give me all the reasons to support the curent military action adn any similar action such as the incursion into Afghanistan. You confuse peace with isolationism. You hide behind the universal desire and reverence for peace becasue you do not have the conviction, or strength of character, to face down hte real casues of war and tyranny such as the mysoginistic Taliban or the gerneally sick and depraved Saddam. You are comfortable blaming everythign on Bush or any other republican. You do not have the honesty of intellect to reflect ont he complexity of these matters. TO consider that the UN screwed this up in 1991, and the US screwed up by not pushing the UN to expand its mission in 1991. You do not consider that Jimmy Carter's abject ineffectiveness during the 1979 hostage crisis emboldened the Islamist movement. Do you think that containment woudl have worked with Hitler. Indeed, many on the left felt that it woudl. Would it have worked in the Balkans. Indeed many on the left felt that it would. Woudl it have worked wiht the Taliban. Indeed, that is exactly the course that the Left (well at least teh Clinton administration) took and you see what that got us.
Susy...
by One Voice
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:20 PM
Where were you and the rest of the group when France overthrew the legitimate government of the Ivory Coast? Where was the UN then? I missed the protests on that one.
stupid threats of deportation...
by Knuckle Dragging Barbarian
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:21 PM
If you feel that this country is so unjust and cruel � what are you still doing here? Perhaps it should not be me taking the next flight to Baghdad but you. What I dislike the most are anti-Americans such as you who feel that the United States is so wrong. If that is how you truly feel � why are you here? Do you feel that you can make a difference? If so How? There are ways that you can still support your American voice without bashing it at the same time. Do you truly feel that these �law abiding acts of resistance on the sidewalk along with non-violent civil disobedience elsewhere� that were mentioned for the demonstration today is the way to do it? Your anti-Americanism is as much evil as the war you protest.
WHAT ??
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:24 PM
Suzy Suzy Suzy, you poor misguided fruitcakge (and if you don't get moving soon you will be a late fruticake for the hate rally).
Yes we backed Saddam during the Iran Iraq war. But we don't now. And when we realized that this guy was a real problem we stopped. Hwoever, the French not only backed him, they seemed to have married him. They have been supportign him in this day (as opposed to back in the day). So wake up little sister and smell the couscous.
where have you been one voice when US has thrown so many legitimate governments...
by hk..
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:25 PM
probably watching TV...
sadly enough...
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:29 PM
sadly enough for barbarics like you americanism has been defined by arrogance violence dictatorship and not freedom as it once meant..
IT"S 4:30 !!!
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:29 PM
do you know where your unwashed beancurd eating liberal fruitcake American haters are? Well you beeter run on down to the bus stop and get your bad self to the hate rally or risk not being a part of history and the opportunity to spend a few hours in the City lock-up.
Come to the hate rally. Have a Latte. Meet new people. Stop Traffic. Look like a fool. Cost the City alot of money. Harass innocent people. Support a third world despot. Hurry, don't miss the opportunity to say somethign original to the media, like "George Bush is a Nazi" or "Bombing for Peace is Like F'n for Virginity" (which if you thin about I say we shoudl do both, early and often), or my favorite "No War For Oil" (if only you would let me know what you felt it was okay to have a war for if not for oil then we could recharacterize this war in those terms).
ok...
by susyzimzel
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:30 PM
It would be really nice to think that our military helped Afghanistan out and that they're better off now than they were before. Is this really the case? Actually the situation there seems to have dissolved into warlord/gang activity that our gov't ignores. If I really believed that GWB & Co. were at all interested in women's rights, then I'd be overjoyed that they went into Afghanistan, but that is no concern of GWB's at all. (See also: attempt to repeal Roe v. Wade.) You guys misunderstand (or willfully ignore) my feeling about this country. I don't hate America. I don't hate the troops...I have cousins, coworkers, acquaintances to worry about and I certainly don't want them to die over there...I'm for peace, remember? You seem to see things in black & white terms. Life's more complex than that, and to try to label me or anyone else as Saddam-loving is not only inaccurate and unfair but a blatant lie. I'm sorry you don't have an open mind. I'm sorry you don't think things can be resolved without thousands of murders. I'm sorry you think I'm evil. I really don't care what you think, as clearly I can't change your mind and you can't change mine. So where does this leave us? You tell me.
Final Thought to HK
by One Voice
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:31 PM
Probably. NOT! I am an ex-GreenPeace activist who lost my leg in a freak shark attack and am now handicapped. I have got to go to the rally.
mr unwashed hippie...
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:32 PM
hitler didnt not kill only his own countrymen but others too. so herr bush has been honored with this title as he has been butchering people in latin america afghanistan iraq. so enjoy the blood..
RE: OK
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:34 PM
If you are for peace, then you have to support the overthrow of Saddam and the Taliban and Yassar Arafat. If you are for peace than you must know that sometimes the only roade to peace requires a little resistacne (in this case, war).
may god bless you one voice ...
by HK..
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:34 PM
god bless you and the people of iraq join the peace march
wow
by susyzimzel
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:36 PM
Seriously, che, if the best you can do is to use a string of oddly inaccurate epithets to try and cut me down and make an ass out of yourself, then really I'm glad the troops are over there, covering your ass and fighting for your interests. That really makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, just knowing that you care.
"little resistance=war"
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:37 PM
surely your definitions are skwed che.. 4000 deaths in afghanistan and many more in iraq..
Dear ....
by an unwashed hippie
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:39 PM
So zero German Jews died in the Holocaust? You must have a public education my friend.
what about...
by susyzimzel
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:39 PM
don't you hold Israel accountable for its violent militant policies? It seems a bit racist that you're only blaming Arab nations. surely you don't think they're the only ones who've done wrong.
RE: To Young Brian
by Vet
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:42 PM
Then I'm not talking about you, Brian.
Part of my blood is in my country, Brian. This message board is a hard arena in which to portay viewpoints and not all points get expressed exactly.
But I am speaking about citizens who are nothing more than unpatiotic militants born or not born in this country. We are not a country in the throngs of a civil war, Brian. Civil disobediance does not have to be violent today. When was the last time you saw a group of Christian conservative nationalists try to form a protest group advocating the portent of violence? Or try to seize up the downtown of a city. Look at how they enjoy that. Look at how gleefully they giggle at the inconvenience they hope to create.
I meant to say that I know those people because of how they act, and how they have acted in the past. You are 19, I am 60. I have been there and back. Are you aware that many of these protests are funded quietly by anti-american groups in the background? Look how these people portray President Bush -- as if he is is not a Christian. But they will exhault a man of low moral charactor like Clinton. So it makes sence to you, Brian, to run with these "kinds" of people? Brian I am choosing not to communicate further now. This is too much of a rant. Good luck with your future young man.
dear unwashed hippie..
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:43 PM
i didnt say zero died you must wash your eyes at least so that you can read clearly..
sadly enough...(back at ya)
by Knuckle Dragging Barbarian
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:44 PM
Since when did the United States become an arrogant violent dictatorship? Do we still not have free vote? If in your comment of �freedom as it once meant� as to be freedom of choice. I believe that we still have that. What exactly do you mean by� freedom as it once meant�?
question
by c swartz
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:44 PM
I would like to get back to the original base of this forum and that is to comment on the POG organizing in the streets of Pittsburgh at rush hour. Can any of you who plan on attending or supporting this, please explain to me what you intend to accomplish. From the words in the preface..."...extent of further actions will depend on the situation", "If the bombing has begun, our resistance will obviously be escalated", and "....the decision of which tactics to use will be made on the spot." This sounds like chaos to me, just the opposite of a group that would like to be an example of peace. Some synonyms for peace are calm and stillness. A snake march through the streets of Pittsburgh during rush hour shouting opinions does not seem calm or at all still... or peaceful for that matter. And isn't that your ultimate goal, to promote your peace-loving selves? Explain to me how inconveniencing other people and possibly creating a road block for ambulences who may need to reach someone having a heart attack or a mother giving birth, or a child that was hit with a stray bullet is going to help ANYBODY OR ANY CAUSE. I believe all of our opInions are important and we should respect one anothers, but why is yours so important that it should affect the normal lives of the people in Piitsburgh trying to get home to their children or worse to detrimentally affect someone who needs help and can't get it because you would like to halt normal business life? I have an opinion about this war, but I haven't selfishly decided to inconvenience anyone to express it. But I will support the men and women who join our military every day to fight for your right to express it, on our city streets, during rush hour, because in Iraq, you would be dead. And thank you for the chaos in Pittsburgh.
GOD BLESS THE USA and President Bush for knowing what that means!
RE: Suzy Suzy Suzy
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:45 PM
I thin k alot of nations have done wrong, but that is a redherring, the last refuge of the feeble moral-relativists of the left. It goes kind of lie this .. "American has no authority to do anything in the world other than bend over and take it becasue America does not have clean hands. And furhter, America can not signle out any nation becasue all nations have done wrng." SORRY< SUZY that is just plain stupid..and weak. We have to take the responsibiltity to make these judgemtens. AMerica has its issues. Isreal has its issues. But as to Isreal, the PLO wants to kill these peple and I think that Isreal does nto oppress, it defends. WHen was the last time Ariel Sharon was on the TV praising the courage of a young Isreali girl or boy for strapping themselves up with some TNT and blowing up a bus load of Palestinians on their way to school? When was the last time George Bush had anyone's tongue cut out just for fun?
hold up, lovey
by susyzimzel
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:49 PM
Did I say America shouldn't be taking action? I just don't happen to think the actions currently being taken by our government are right or appropriate. As a member of a democracy, do I not have the right to feel that way?
Also, to the person who wrote about how GWB understands "god bless america"...what does that have to do with anything, and what are you trying to say?
also...
by suSyzimzel
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:51 PM
it's susy, not suzy.
Get in your SUV and drive
by Biomech
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:52 PM
Shouldn't you all be on your way to the protest?
freedom to vote surely..
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:53 PM
surely barbarian we have freedom to vote and mr "president" was "elected" surely we have freedom to wear T shirts that profess peace (remember the NY incident when the lawyer wearing peace Tshirt was asked to leave) surely we have freedom of expression (maine teacher warned against any reference to anti-war rally)
you naive wake up..
RE: Susy Susy Susy
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:54 PM
Sorry Susy. You have a right to your opinons in this America (unless of course it has become the dictatorship that someoen on here sais it was). But you are also entitled to receive some grief for those opinions form time to time (kind of lie the way I and everyone else in the City is "entitled" to be inconcienced and put at risk for your opinions).
mr biomech..
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:55 PM
shouldnt you be watching TV for "spectacles" of war instead of being on this forum..
sorting things out
by zack
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:56 PM
this entire issue is extremely complex and i think it's important to sort through some issues here.
first of all, the vast majority of protestors in this country have no affiliation with terrorist groups, nor are they sympathizers with military dictators. however, i can understand the arguments that people have made regarding the appropriateness of protests downtown. while i support anyone's ability to exercise their right to peacefully assemble, i think it is also important to recognize the fact that the anti-war movement has to build bonds with people in the community, and their actions should reach out to people in pittsburgh rather than pissing them off. i understand that there is a bigger picture to consider, but shutting down portions of downtown without properly communicating a message of solidarity and trust to others in the community is not an effective form of resistance. on a different note, even if you are in support of the war it is important to recognize the fact that anti-war protestors are trying to do what they think is right, they are acting within the bounds of their constitutional rights, and they are taking an active role in the public sphere.
secondly, anti-war demonstrations have nothing to do with belittling the intelligence of people in the community, or trying to lump all soldiers into the category of baby-killers. everyone knows someone who is in the military, or has served in the military in some capacity. the issue is about the strategies that the bush administration have utilized in order begin their campaign in iraq. people on both sides of the debate have learned important lessons from vietnam, and nobody wants to see servicemen/women treated like criminals and killers. when people claim that the anti-war protests are condemning the soldiers in iraq, they are making judgements based on personal reactions, and not giving credit to the complexity of the circumstances. it's all to easy to dismiss anti-war protests as an anti-soldier forum, but this hides the fact that many veterens, congressmen, FBI, and CIA people have spoken out against the war in Iraq. the US military has had an extremely long history of not taking care of its own, and many veterens have pointed to some of the following facts:
-until this year, tens of thousands of veterns were denied proper medication and treatment for a condition known as Gulf-War syndrome--a condition that the government was aware of. The Fed government systematically denied veterens treatment based upon the legal justification that the symptoms could not be directly attributed to exposure to chemicals in the Gulf.
-during the civil war, WWI, WWII, Korea, (and portions of Vietnam) african-american men proudly defended their country in order to return home to face widespread racism, poverty, and the inability to have the same civil liberties as other people in this country. this is not an opinion, it is an historical fact.
-women in the military who have been sexually harassed and raped by fellow soldiers (or superiors) have been consistently silenced by the juridical arm of the military, thereby directly denying the allegations of hardworking servicewomen, and forcing other victims of military abuse (whether male or female) to bear the burden of abuse by themselves.
these are only a few examples of what the military is capable of, and they are not brought up in order to badmouth the institution as a whole, rather, they are brought up in order to justify the claims of veterens and patriots who are opposed to this war.
finally, the main issue at stake is that the Bush administration seems incapable of supporting the arguments it has given for going to war. here are some of the ways in which they have been unconvincing to a large number of people throughout the world:
-the Bush administration claims that a preemptive strike against Iraq is the only way in which to secure the safety of Americans, however the federal government has repeatedly and explicitly told us for the last two years that the real threat to our safety is that of terrorism. while Bush has been quick to draw links between Al Queda and Hussein, there are very little evidence to support these claims. given this situation, how can we justify a preemptive strike on a state power when the real threat is stateless? furthermore, how can Iraq pose a "grave" threat to the people of America if we are capable of defeating the country in a matter of days? these arguments have not been substantially addressed by the Bush administration and they have not been convincing.
-if the United States sets the standard for preemptive warfare, what sort of position does that put us in if the same justification is utilized by other countries? if the palestinians and syrians attack Israel based on a potential security threat, what will we say? what if Pakistan decides to invade India in order to make their country safe from the Indian threat? the fact is, as the most powerful world leader, our policies have direct implications for how other countries behave. if we set the standard for preemptive warfare, which we have, we are leaving the door wide open for unprovoked warefare between existing countries.
-even if the war in Iraq is successful, how do we continue the process of disrupting terrorist activity if other countries become unwilling to help us out? it seems counterintuitive to openly defy countries like France, Germany, China, and Russia when we are very dependent upon their cooperation in fighting terrorists. The administration has openly said that the War on Terror must be fought by EVERYONE, and when we ignore the will of other world powers, we directly compromise the safety of Americans here and abroad.
two final points should also be made:
-while supporters of the military and police have been quick to identify the importance of national security in this country, their notion of security is extremely underdeveloped. national security does depend upon force, regulation, and military strength. however, national security also depends upon educators, social services, parents, and communities. people who are educated and well fed are less prone to commit crimes, nevertheless turn into terrorists. people who have access to free (or at least affordable) health care, day care, and cultural opportunities are more likely to be productive members of society, as opposed to criminals or deviants. when we spend more money on defense than the rest of the world combined, we compromise the ability to have a more sustained notion of national security by denying proper funding for schools, health care, day care, after-school programs, and the arts.
-finally, instead of shittalking one another, we need to figure out productive ways to foster communication about this situation, and we need to think critically about both sides of the issue. pro-war folks have a lot of good points about the possible benefits of a post-Hussein Iraq, the problems that arise with certain forms of protest, and the recognition that soldiers should not be shit upon for doing their job. however, these folks have not convinced the majority of americans, and the majority of the world that the world will be any safer after Saddam is brought down. this is a serious fucking problem, and it has major ramifications in terms of America's public image, the global economy, the ability to effectively fight terrorists, and the potential for other countries to declare war without provocation.
this is the basis for the anti-war movement, and until it has been proven that these are concerns have been recognized and acted upon by the federal government, we will continue to ask the difficult questions and demand answers from our leaders. if they are not addressing our concerns, then they are not fulfilling their obligations as elected officials.
power to the people.
-zack-
wait, biomech
by susyzimzel
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:57 PM
Why aren't you there, driving your fuel inefficient SUV into the crowd and provoking fist fights by means of the frat boy counterprotest?
Sorry, this downtown protest is not my fight. While I don't blame others for trying, that's really not my thing.
RE: T Shirts Nameless Twit
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 4:58 PM
You bonehead Che, that lawyer was not asked to leave anyplace because of his T Shirt. HE was removed from the Mall because he was hasling people who were coming and going form the Mall. Just becasue you are an 'Activist' does not give you the right to hassle acoste peopel that don't share your view (or inconveneice them by tying up traffic during rush hour .. that is jsut plain rude..or French maybe).
mr che..
by ltl...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 5:06 PM
what is your souce you baseless che.. most reports on CNN, Washington Post and Indymedia said that the guy was not harrassing anybody but wearing the Tshirt and was asked to leave. Braindead Che tell me your source? Infact after the incident the security guard was fired by the Mall too.
your arguments as usual have been baseless biased and a bunch of lies
Actually...
by One Voice
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 5:08 PM
Please use the correct terminology. This is for everyone. WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY! The United States is a Republic! Please people!
che...
by susyzimzel
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 5:08 PM
as you can probably tell, I am not at that protest. I don't find that aggressive confrontation solves very many problems. I agree with the individual who wrote about communication above...sorry I don't recall your name...
really the only understanding I'm getting out of any of this is that people are not going to agree, and putting it in their faces only causes more anger and resentment. And that happens on all sides. I'm very concerned about what this war will bring, especially longterm. There very well may be consequences nobody imagined. I wish things would work out well, I really do.
RE: ltl Lawyer
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 5:09 PM
You could try the Amer Bar Assoc website or any ofht e popular press. It was initially reproted that the guy was removed because of the shirt. THe follow up had the full story. Try also the Wall Street Journal Websight or the Washington Post.
mr che i have read these websites..
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 5:14 PM
none of them give any confirmed answers to this. infact the security guard was suspended for his behaviour.
Republic
by Jim
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 5:15 PM
Just for reference sake...We live in a Republic not a Democracy. We elect officials to make decisions for us because our founding fathers had enough fore sight to realize that mob rule would be chaos and could be the undoing of this fine country we live in. If you were educated from the seventies on (as I was) you are probably not aware of this fact. Our elected officials are privy to lots of info. that can we are not. It never surprises me how quick some of the radicals in this country are so quick to dismiss and not believe what are elected officials say, but they will believe a murderess tyrant.
Suzy... research the founding documents of this country to find out what God bless the USA means. God is so intertwined with the founding of this nation that it is the primary fact as to why we are the most blessed nation on this planet. The Truth is the Truth no matter how much some what to strike it from the records.
idiotic jim
by att..
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 5:18 PM
bush was not "elected"
oh shucks
by suSyzimzel
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 5:27 PM
Jim, I know what "god bless america" means. I've had to study American history for a long time, I was a big fan of Thomas Jefferson in grade school, etc. I was only asking what that had to do with GWB and with the current conversation. I'm sure you think it'd be lovely if America could bomb and convert everyone into loving Jesus, but honestly. If America offers freedom of religion, it ought to offer freedom from religion as well. If Christianity does it for you, so be it, more power to you, amen. But not everyone feels that way, and no one ought to be punished or at the receiving end of anyone's holy war because they disagree.
To att
by Jim
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 5:29 PM
First, it is childish for you to resort to name calling.
Second, George Bush was elected according to the laws of the land. The national vote is not a popularity contest. If you win a state, you get the electoral votes. Bush got more electoral votes than Gore. Thats the fact, just because he did not get the majority of the popular vote is insignifiant. And don't try the argument that the Flordia electoral vote was stolen. There were numerous recounts since the election, and even the most liberal news papers have admmited that Bush won the state .
To Suzy
by Jim
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 5:36 PM
Nobody is shoving anything down anybodies throat. This is no Holy War. This is a war that first and foremost will make the world a safer place. The President is doing what he needs to do to protect us. Second of all it is a war to free the people of Iraq. they can't do it themselves, so we will give them a hand. this isn't about religion at all.
Dear Nameless
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 5:48 PM
You should keep looking, becasue I am correct. He was hassling people...kind of like the peace activists in this other articel I came across http://www.whittierdailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,207%7E12026%7E1234836,00.html
TO THE WARMONGERS
by PEACE BE ON EARTH
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 5:55 PM
ALL THE WAR MONGERS GET OFF THIS FORUM AND GO AN WATCH TV DONT MISS THE BLOOD KILL DEATH THAT YOU ALL STAND FOR..
partially named che..
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 6:06 PM
the link you provide does not have the info on the incident. anyways go on google and type peace t shirt crossgate and read the various articles.
Nameless Ignoramus Research Loser
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 6:10 PM
Here. I am tired of doing your webresearch for you. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/crossgates1.html
Nameless Ignoramus Loser (2)
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 6:12 PM
THe first article was not to anything about the Crossgate incident, but to another example of the "peaceful" and "respectful" actions of the Bush Protesters.
partially named fully braindead conservative and bloodloving che..
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 6:15 PM
if your idiotic links do not show me what you want to show me then go and learn first how to use the internet as resource...
get off this forum
you are right PEACE ON EARTH
Nameless Ignoramus Research Loser (3)
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 6:16 PM
ANd here is another interesting story on the Crossgates incident. The protester is a hypocrit himself. http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1046833515335
Research Losers(4)
by Che
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 6:21 PM
the first link was to the following article you braindead liberal racists. Your protests are nothing more than your manifestation of hate forthe Arab world. You don't care how many Arabs die in Iraqi, just so you don't have to feel guilty about using the wealth of the United States for a war to liberate an oppresed nation, when you woudl rather use that money to stop global warming (see Hans Blix interview with MTV News if you don't understand that idiocy).
Antiwar protesters trash 9/11 memorial
American flags burned and slashed
http://www.whittierdailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,207%7E12026%7E1234836,00.html
history
by jwg
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:41 AM
"God is so intertwined with the founding of this nation that it is the primary fact as to why we are the most blessed nation on this planet"
the founding fathers were mostly Diests who believe in humanism over the power of Divinity.
There views were considered by most at the time to be borderline athiestic, and unholy. They believe that mankind was more important than God.
hey che!
by jwg
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:43 AM
go get a job
Still think it's about oil? Read this!
by Anonymous
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 7:39 AM
If you're foolish enough to believe that this war didn't have to happen, or that it's about oil, read this information from Amnesty International's Web site. It documents all of the horrific acts Saddam has committed against his own citizens:
http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Recent/MDE140082001!Open
If you don't want to open the link, here's an excerpt:
"Amnesty International has over the years documented gross human rights violations committed on a massive scale in Iraq affecting all sectors of society. These violations, which have been committed by Iraqi military, intelligence and security personnel, have included 'disappearances' of thousands of people, the extensive use of the death penalty, extra-judicial executions, arbitrary arrests, long-term detention without charge or trial, grossly unfair and secret trials, systematic torture of suspected political opponents, judicial punishments constituting torture or cruel, inhuman punishments, prisoners of conscience, and forcible expulsions."
Yeah... it's about oil.
by jwg
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 8:35 AM
yeah, cause China doesn't do things like that, but I forgot, we're buddies with them.
This is not about anything but the rich fucking up the poor. Rumsfield himself used to go visit Saddam and give him tips on running his country. Cheney's Halliburton sold oil equipment to the iraqis.
Fuck them all, my country and my world have been hijacked by the wealthy. I want it back!
Hooray Military
by jwg
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 8:48 AM
Zeke enlisted in 1984, and he obviously turned out to be a healthy, well-adjusted lad
Dont bite the hand that feeds you...
by Dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 9:05 AM
Having been a dumb college kid once myself, I understand the passions that flow when you find "a cause" to hook into to be different than mainstream....it gives yo ua sense of being on your own and a sense of "doing something that matters".
But do these kids realize what the impact of their demonstrations can have?? Let's face it, we are in Iraq now and the goal now is to finish the job and get out, with the least cost to our family and friends fighting on our behalf.
Do these kids understand the costs we will pay if we fail? And do they realize that they are contributing AGAINST the good of our country? You may agree or disagree as to the "why" we are there....but we are. NOW we need to concentrate on getting back out successfully.
I wonder how they would feel if we DID lose this battle and we were instantaneously transported into a world where folks like Sadaam rule....I would wonder if these kids with their comfy colleg dorms (some paid for by the same government they criticize, by the way) would feel any different when their studies were changed from "Undecided" or "Musical theory" to whatever the government forced on them?
Don't bite the hand that feeds you, children. That used to be the first thing taught to kids as they grew up. I think we need to get back to that concept.
Finally, I find the latest protests (Thursday evening) unbelievable....accosting innocent commuters who may very well agree with you, blocking traffic causing strife simply because you want to be heard...How can you on one hand demand peace and on the other cause unrest?
Civil unrest and disobedience only diverts resources from other more important needs.
If you don't agree with why we are there, that is fine....the beauty of this country os that you CAN have this opinion and not have to die for it......try that in Iraq, and you are shot.
But don't you DARE cause more problems. If you don't love this country, you don't have to. You have the right to leave and live wherever you would prefer if you like.
But you do NOT have the right to cause problems for me and my family or to put ME in danger...and by diverting resources toward your silly protests you do just that.
By the way, "the majority of the US" does NOT agree with your anti-war sentiments.....there are some rallys, etc, but keep in mind how LARGE a number of folks live in this country......and yet a relatively TINY portion (mostly college kids) are protesting.
DZ
Rally of Hate
by Che
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 9:28 AM
I read the reprots i thepaper and onthe news. Sounds like you guys were out of hand. I seriously doubt that you were "obeying the order s of the police." Hell, you went to this rally hoping to get arrested so you could make whatever our point is. So you could cost the city alot of money to babysit your butt. You intentionally intefered with people who have nothign to do with dropping bombs on anyone. Htey are just trying to do their jobs, making a delivery or just walking ot their car or going home. You intentionally cestroyed property, tearing off someone's license plate and throwing newspare and advertising boxes into the streets. You intentionalyy inconvenienced private citizens in an attempt to forcibly disrupt their day adn impose your opinions on them. Someone said earlier that a delay of a half hour is nothing compared to being bopmbed. Well your right, but that is not the comparison. Here a delay of a half hour is very significant and just plain rude. What about all the people on the buses who were delayed in getting h0me, or peopel driving home on theior own, to go home to spend time with their children. Or what about the person who has to be home at a specific time for child or elder care responsibilities. Now tell me how that furthers the cause of peace. Just because "You" have an opinion "You" think it is SO importnat that it has to be crammed down the throat of everyone else. Your tactics are just extortion and terrorism on a different scale. Soem peopel will not even come to work today becasue of the fear of a repeat of yesterday adn that they may be late to pick up the kids. ANd those that don't come to work may lose this day's pay or otherwise have to sacrifice a sick day from a time when they might really need it to stay home with their kids or parents. THanks alot you "peaceloving" "caring" selfish ninnies. And what about the polution that you contribute to by holding up traffic. Like I said, it is nto about peace. It is about you and trying to rationalize your self-importance. Quit cramming your opininos down on everyone else. Try to act respectful adn responsible for a change. I understand that you are mostly a bunch of high school ahnd college students whose brains have not yet had the opportunity to fully develop, but try real hard to be responsible members of society (and if you can't may the police give you a few lessons from Sgt. Miss Manners of the Pepper Gas High Colonic Brigade).
Please stay off the streets today adn let the rest of the City have some of hte peace you so angrily profess to desire.
yee haw!
by ..
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 9:29 AM
Conform or Die Dave Z!
Do as your told and nothing bad will happen to you. GO home and watchyour sitcoms and try to remember when life still mattered to you
Zeke: your racist comments are being hidden
by imc editorial collective
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 9:32 AM
Note to Zeke and others: The IMC editorial collective's policy on hiding posts & comments is available here: http://indypgh.org/process/openpub.php#ed.
<br><br>
Zeke's posts in particular have been hidden because they contain racist, sexist, homophobic language. The IMC will not tolerate that. The number of comments makes it impossible to read all comments as they are posted, so some are being removed after they have been responded to.
<br><br>
For the sake of civilized discussion, do not use hateful language.
"Comply or die"
by dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 9:38 AM
It has nothing to do with "conform or die",....Obviously spoken by a kid with no real world experience.
Part of being a grownup in any society is understanding that there are rules for a reason. And rules are imposed by SOCIETY for the greater good of the SOCIETY , not for one group. Not all rules are good, and some are unjust, and luckily in the US we have the right to voice that opinion and try to push change.
But what good is to be had by destroying property like you kids did yesterday? Or disrupting a working mom's commute to pickup her kids ontime from a sitter??
Rules are what keep societies functional.
If stuff like yesteray was allowed to go unchecked, folks like me would have to go out and stop folks like you.
By the way, life DOES mean a lot to me.....a lot more than stying out to party or passing an exam. I have kids and a family, and work hard every day to support them. One day, I pray that my sons will be ableto have the LUXURY of going to college and to be able to protest societal norms as well, and I will be telling him exactly what I am telling you.
When you grow up and have kids and have to support yourself, you will feel differently, and will appreciate the rules that society imposes.
it nothing to do with "conforming" and everything to do with "living with each other"....the VERY thing that protesters CLAIM to want.
DZ
What Happened
by Me
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 9:43 AM
What happened at the anti-war rally? I thought you were suppost to have a peaceful protest. It didn't look peaceful on the news. Please don't have these anymore - I can't leave work early everyday to avoid people playing in the streets and disrupting traffic.
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS AND OUR PRESIDENT.
Davey Davey
by jwg
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:37 AM
YOu've got it all wrong pal.
It is about conformity, you're one of them now. Life's easier when the tv tells you what to do isn't it.
and just for your reference, tho it is no business of yours. I am way past being a student. Exams are not a concern of mine. Life expirence I do have. I also have a job, so save that line.
Your 'society' is only in place to supress the 'freedoms' which you so blindly claim to cling to. If you don't agree with something you should stand up, shout about it, do anything you possibly can.
Hell, this city was BUILT on people doing that.
and to the last poster... the march was not violent at all. DO NOT BELIEVE THE MEDIA! I cannot stress that enough. I learned last night how badly they lie to sensationalise things. Channel 11 climed that protestors were smashing window and spraypainting cars. All the while not offering one photograph of the so called disobediance. It's absolute bullshit what they get away with and what you buy hook line and sinker.
EDUCATE!
One of them! OH NO!
by dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:58 AM
OH MY GOD! I am "one of them " NOW!!!
OH MY GOD NO!
Talk about an old, cliche, worn out slogan.
......versus being "one of you" who find something in EVERY government action to complain about and serve only to cause civil unrest and get myself arrested and/or injured?
Get a life.
Protest alls ya wants......just do it so it doenst affect or injure the lives of the other thousands of people who disagree with you or dont care for your cause.
DZ
dippy
by jwg
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:03 PM
the whole point of protests are to disrupt. bt that's beside the point.
don't tell me about cliche until you stop sayinf love it or leave it, pal.
I know you're just fuming because in the back of your mind you can almost remember when you could think for yourself and live a full life.
Suburbs and sitcoms can be soul draining, I know. but you are one of 'them' no towo ways about it "you can speak your mind all you want, just don't let anyone hear you"
sheep.
Dear JWG
by Dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:10 PM
Its kind of funny that your only defense to MY arguments is to call me "one of them" and say that my lifestyle "drains" me , etc...<grin>
So, again, since I disagree with your rhetoric, I am "one of them" and somehow living less of a life than you???
Funny stuff, sparky.
By the way, I never said "love it or leave it"...that is a cliche from back in the 60's....
No, I said, if you feel tehre are terrible conditions living in the US, you should better your situation by moving somewhere better.....
Two different things.
Have fun at the "protest":...and dont forget to wear your tie-dye.
DZ
Dear JWG
by Dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:11 PM
Its kind of funny that your only defense to MY arguments is to call me "one of them" and say that my lifestyle "drains" me , etc...<grin>
So, again, since I disagree with your rhetoric, I am "one of them" and somehow living less of a life than you???
Why turn this into a barrage of personal attacks?
Funny stuff, sparky.
By the way, I never said "love it or leave it"...that is a cliche from back in the 60's....
No, I said, if you feel tehre are terrible conditions living in the US, you should better your situation by moving somewhere better.....
Two different things.
Have fun at the "protest":...and dont forget to wear your tie-dye.
DZ
wow
by jwg
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:42 PM
Dave, I'm more likely to wear a tie than tie-dye, but again, besides the point.
I'm not personally attacking you. But you appear to be someone who once cared for things and have confused stepping in line with growing up.
and I know you didn't say love it or leave it, I was paraphrasing.
And no If I don't like the living situation in this country, I'm not going to leave because a) I don't want to be a victim of US foreign policy and b) leaving would be akin to surrender. This country is fucked up, yes. And It is my duty as a citizen of this country to try my hardest to make it a better place. Take the power out of the houses where it has resided and putrified for so many years. Lift up your voice and let them know that they are not getting to you. It's ultra-american
Will there be another?
by Freddy
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 1:37 PM
Is there going to be a protest today again (Friday) in downtown Pittsburgh? I heard there would be one at 4:30 PM on the news. Is this true?
Trying to take you protesters seriously
by One Voice
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 1:48 PM
It has become increasingly difficult to take the protestors yesterday seriously. Why, you might ask? Perhaps it is that some were wearing things like �Mettalica Kill �Em All� and Marilyn Manson and Suicidal Tendencies t-shirts. It is kind of like wearing a KKK t-shirt to an NAACP rally. I have no problem with the desire for peace, but please practice and espouse what you are attempting to preach.
For those of you who think the whole point of peaceful demonstration is to disrupt, you could not be further from the truth. Peaceful demonstration is just like it sounds, peaceful. What occurred yesterday was civil disobedience, not peaceful protest. You wonder why your point has not been made? How about some civil discussion and peaceful protest? Weather or not you choose to believe it, the same military that you are protesting has continuously fought and died to preserve your right to express your opinions.
In recent years, our educational system in this great nation has failed you. Understand that our government is a Republic, not a democracy. I, for one, am very thankful that it is. You see, in a true democracy, the voices of the minority would NEVER be heard. True democracy doe not allow for minority driven points of view. If you have one more vote than the minority, you can dictate policy with no fear of repercussions. You all call for education, so do I!
....
by Dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 1:49 PM
"But you appear to be someone who once cared for things and have confused stepping in line with growing up. "
WHY do you KEEP TAKING IT THERE!??!!? I care about everything in my life and what affects it. I am VERY MUCH aware of the world situation.....Just because my opinion differs from yours, why am I "stepping in line" ? I am not lumping YOU into a similar grouping like "liberal activiists"....I respect that you have an opinion that you hold dear, as do I....
Why MUST this be a "you are wrong I am right" discussion???
"And no If I don't like the living situation in this country, I'm not going to leave because a) I don't want to be a victim of US foreign policy and b) leaving would be akin to surrender. "
Great. That's YOUR decision, and you are free to do so. However, think about this.....There may be hundreds or even thousands of protestors who feel exactly like you do. But question: Where are these folks when the elected officials are being elected? WHy not be proactive THEN instead of muddying the waters in a time where we need to bakc our country??
I'll tell ya...there may be thousands of protestors even in teh US...but, apparantly, there are MANY MORE people who DO SUPPORT this whole thing.....if not, there would be more protest than there is.
I guess ALL of us have "fallen in line" ??
"This country is fucked up, yes. And It is my duty as a citizen of this country to try my hardest to make it a better place. Take the power out of the houses where it has resided and putrified for so many years. Lift up your voice and let them know that they are not getting to you. It's ultra-american"
Good! Thats what this country is about! Do something come the next elections! For now, the bellyaching is only serving to make yourselves look bad and further alienate yourselves from the folks you are theoretically trying to "win over"..........
DZ
So what did you guys just say
by Freddie
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 1:51 PM
Sorry guys - little too much to read, but do I have to leave work at 4 to get out of town before the protests begin or can i stay until 5?
reform = chloroform
by jwg
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:15 PM
I do make my stand at the ballot boxes in november believe me. But it won't change a thing. You cannot 'elect' change in this country. Every four years we get to vote between identical twins with different coloured ties on. Democrat = Republican. Politics are a death camp.
and I keep going 'there' with the sheep comments because I can tell there getting to you.
"Iraq seeks liberation"
by vet
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 4:41 PM
So...it's about oil, is it?
-------------------------------
Americans very good," Ali Khemy said. "Iraq wants to be free."
Some chanted, "Ameriki! Ameriki!"
Many others in the starving town just patted their stomachs and raised their hands, begging for food.
A man identifying himself only as Abdullah welcomed the arrival of the U.S. troops: "Saddam Hussein is no good. Saddam Hussein a butcher."
An old woman shrouded in black -- one of the very few women outside -- knelt toward the feet of Americans, embracing an American woman. A younger man with her pulled her away, giving her a warning sign by sliding his finger across his throat.
In 1991, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died after prematurely celebrating what they believed was their liberation from Saddam after the Gulf War. Some even pulled down a few pictures of Saddam then -- only to be killed by Iraqi forces.
Gurfein playfully traded pats with a disabled man and turned down a dinner invitation from townspeople.
"Friend, friend," he told them in Arabic learned in the first Gulf War.
"We stopped in Kuwait that time," he said. "We were all ready to come up there then, and we never did."
The townspeople seemed grateful this time.
"No Saddam Hussein!" one young man in headscarf told Gurfein. "Bush!"
-excerpted from Fox New article Fri Mar 21st 2003 Associated Press
oh, well then...
by susyzimzel
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 5:40 PM
susyzimzel@yahoo.com
If you saw it on FOX NEWS then it must be true!
RE: SUSY
by vet
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 7:39 PM
"Associated Press" please and thank you...
RE: Dan Kyle
by vet
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 7:56 PM
Dan,
Where do you get your so totally rediculous misinformation? Do you make it up? You must.
Iraq Heads the Global Disarmament Committee
by Len
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 9:34 AM
Regarding what Dennis Miller is quoted as saying:
>2) If you have faith in the United Nations to do the right thing keep this in mind, they have Libya heading the committee on human rights and Iraq heading the global disarmament committee. Do your own math here.
I have spent some time searching http://www.un.org and cannot locate anything that would indicate this ever was the case. If anyone can provide validation, please post.
Regards, Len
Are you kidding me??
by Stephanie Adams
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 9:36 AM
So it's ok to protest the war in cities like Washington DC or NYC but Pittsburgh...FIRST AMENDMENT...have yeah ever heard of a small group of people coming together to make a difference! I support our troops in this horrible time and I support those who are trying to make a difference here in the US! Rockin' on for FREE SPEECH and keep supporting our TROOPS! GOD BLESS AMERICA!
Dan Kyle
by Facts
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 9:08 PM
I use a lot of facts. Such things happen when you research. You should look into it. Here's the link about Egypt:
http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WAR_EGYPT_PROTESTS?SITE=PAPIT&SEC
TION=HOME
Yesterday on NPR, I heard the US Embassy in Germany has needed armed guards round the clock because they are also afraid of a violent takeover. The United States acted unilaterally against the wishes of the UN and now WE are the bad guys. This is what you fought for Vet? Get with it.
UNilaterally??
by U.R.Abutthead
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 10:31 PM
Sodamninsane@killer.com
WE ACTED UNITLATERALLLY> YOU ARE IN IDIOT> UNILATERALL< ONLY IF UNILATERLLAY MEANS WIHTOUT THE FRENCH> THERE ARE OVER 50 COUNTIRES IN THE COALITION MR> FACT BOY. DO YOU HOMEWORK YOU SADDAM LOVING COWARD. YOU AND THE REST OF YOUR PEACENIK FOOL FRIEMDS JUST WANT TO LIVE HERE SAFE WHILE IGNORING THE HORRORS OF SERIOUS HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD> YOU ARE ALL HYPOKRITS. AND YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF CRIMINALS. I HOPE THEY GIVE YOU ALL JAIL TIME FOR PRACTICALLY INCITING A RIOT. HOPEFULLY THEY MADE YOU ALL TAKE SHOWERS AT THE JAIL BECAUSE ALL OF YOU BEAN EATING HIPPIES STICK LIKE AN OLD PAIR OF SNEAKERS. NOW GO BACK TO SMOKING DOPE BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW CRAP ABOUT FOREIGN AFFAIRS. BY THE WAY, DID I SAY THAT YOU CAN KISS MY HIND QUARTERS? WELL YOU CAN.
Liberals ruin America
by David
Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 3:33 AM
Your answer is no war. Well, then what? What is okay? Saddam and his "people" rape, torture, gas, these so-called innocent people of iraq that we bomb. Are you kidding me...No Starbucks in Iraq, no innocent people sitting around watching the Oscars, no just war, pain, and torture and dictotorship. The left says we go for oil, this war will cost 75-100 Billion dollars, many American lives, biilions more in military equipment losses, and a loss of world relations. Wouldn't it be easier to just cut a check to Iraq for 100 Billion and buy a ton of thier oil than do all this/ Uneducated people usually say no war. Because they have never been, never seen, never learned about anything related to it. We would not be a country if not for war, slaves would still be legal, Hitler would run Europe, just people America has rich people that sip cofee and dress goofy and say we hate war doesn't mean that the crazy, chemical rapists and tortures give a crap what we think. They make fun of our leftist views. Sptember 11th is only one example of the war hitting home, how about another one soon. It may happen. And us bombing babies and kids, give me a break. What are we suppose to do when Irqai's sheild themsleves with women and fake giving up and then kill our soldiers. These are demented people that need to ne taken out and given a new leader. If we listened to hippies and liberals, we see a true hypocrasy. THEY SUPPORT ABORTION, THE ULTIMATE BABY KILLING MACHINE, YET SAY WE ARE EVIL FOR BPOMBING BABIES, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE LIBERALS. GO BACK TO YOU COLLEGE CLASSROOMS AND YOUR STUBBORD BELIEFS WHILE THE RIGHT SIDE RUNS THE COUNTRY, FREES THE WORLD, AND LEADS EVERYONE CLOSER TO HARMONY AND GOD!!
Liberals ruin America
by David
Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 3:33 AM
Your answer is no war. Well, then what? What is okay? Saddam and his "people" rape, torture, gas, these so-called innocent people of iraq that we bomb. Are you kidding me...No Starbucks in Iraq, no innocent people sitting around watching the Oscars, no just war, pain, and torture and dictotorship. The left says we go for oil, this war will cost 75-100 Billion dollars, many American lives, biilions more in military equipment losses, and a loss of world relations. Wouldn't it be easier to just cut a check to Iraq for 100 Billion and buy a ton of thier oil than do all this/ Uneducated people usually say no war. Because they have never been, never seen, never learned about anything related to it. We would not be a country if not for war, slaves would still be legal, Hitler would run Europe, just people America has rich people that sip cofee and dress goofy and say we hate war doesn't mean that the crazy, chemical rapists and tortures give a crap what we think. They make fun of our leftist views. Sptember 11th is only one example of the war hitting home, how about another one soon. It may happen. And us bombing babies and kids, give me a break. What are we suppose to do when Irqai's sheild themsleves with women and fake giving up and then kill our soldiers. These are demented people that need to ne taken out and given a new leader. If we listened to hippies and liberals, we see a true hypocrasy. THEY SUPPORT ABORTION, THE ULTIMATE BABY KILLING MACHINE, YET SAY WE ARE EVIL FOR BPOMBING BABIES, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE LIBERALS. GO BACK TO YOU COLLEGE CLASSROOMS AND YOUR STUBBORD BELIEFS WHILE THE RIGHT SIDE RUNS THE COUNTRY, FREES THE WORLD, AND LEADS EVERYONE CLOSER TO HARMONY AND GOD!!
Liberals ruin America
by David
Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 3:34 AM
Your answer is no war. Well, then what? What is okay? Saddam and his "people" rape, torture, gas, these so-called innocent people of iraq that we bomb. Are you kidding me...No Starbucks in Iraq, no innocent people sitting around watching the Oscars, no just war, pain, and torture and dictotorship. The left says we go for oil, this war will cost 75-100 Billion dollars, many American lives, biilions more in military equipment losses, and a loss of world relations. Wouldn't it be easier to just cut a check to Iraq for 100 Billion and buy a ton of thier oil than do all this/ Uneducated people usually say no war. Because they have never been, never seen, never learned about anything related to it. We would not be a country if not for war, slaves would still be legal, Hitler would run Europe, just people America has rich people that sip cofee and dress goofy and say we hate war doesn't mean that the crazy, chemical rapists and tortures give a crap what we think. They make fun of our leftist views. Sptember 11th is only one example of the war hitting home, how about another one soon. It may happen. And us bombing babies and kids, give me a break. What are we suppose to do when Irqai's sheild themsleves with women and fake giving up and then kill our soldiers. These are demented people that need to ne taken out and given a new leader. If we listened to hippies and liberals, we see a true hypocrasy. THEY SUPPORT ABORTION, THE ULTIMATE BABY KILLING MACHINE, YET SAY WE ARE EVIL FOR BPOMBING BABIES, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE LIBERALS. GO BACK TO YOU COLLEGE CLASSROOMS AND YOUR STUBBORD BELIEFS WHILE THE RIGHT SIDE RUNS THE COUNTRY, FREES THE WORLD, AND LEADS EVERYONE CLOSER TO HARMONY AND GOD!!
Liberals ruin America
by David
Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 3:34 AM
Your answer is no war. Well, then what? What is okay? Saddam and his "people" rape, torture, gas, these so-called innocent people of iraq that we bomb. Are you kidding me...No Starbucks in Iraq, no innocent people sitting around watching the Oscars, no just war, pain, and torture and dictotorship. The left says we go for oil, this war will cost 75-100 Billion dollars, many American lives, biilions more in military equipment losses, and a loss of world relations. Wouldn't it be easier to just cut a check to Iraq for 100 Billion and buy a ton of thier oil than do all this/ Uneducated people usually say no war. Because they have never been, never seen, never learned about anything related to it. We would not be a country if not for war, slaves would still be legal, Hitler would run Europe, just people America has rich people that sip cofee and dress goofy and say we hate war doesn't mean that the crazy, chemical rapists and tortures give a crap what we think. They make fun of our leftist views. Sptember 11th is only one example of the war hitting home, how about another one soon. It may happen. And us bombing babies and kids, give me a break. What are we suppose to do when Irqai's sheild themsleves with women and fake giving up and then kill our soldiers. These are demented people that need to ne taken out and given a new leader. If we listened to hippies and liberals, we see a true hypocrasy. THEY SUPPORT ABORTION, THE ULTIMATE BABY KILLING MACHINE, YET SAY WE ARE EVIL FOR BPOMBING BABIES, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE LIBERALS. GO BACK TO YOU COLLEGE CLASSROOMS AND YOUR STUBBORD BELIEFS WHILE THE RIGHT SIDE RUNS THE COUNTRY, FREES THE WORLD, AND LEADS EVERYONE CLOSER TO HARMONY AND GOD!!
Facts
by Dave Z
Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 7:56 AM
" The United States acted unilaterally against the wishes of the UN and now WE are the bad guys. This is what you fought for Vet? Get with it."
Uh...hello?? McFly??
....we acted "unilaterally" (well, not really...."unillaterally" means 1 side...we have Britain on our side, and apparantly Turkey too.... but ok) against UN wishes because after 12 years of going with the flow, Sadaam was getting bigger and bigger and more and more dangerous.
Ever hear the phrase "You are only as tough as the last guy you knocked over" ? How about "You are only as good as your last job" or "What have you done for me lately?" ??????
The UN is only powerful if it is able to enforce the standards it sets......As of right now, the UN is pretty much like the substitute teacher in History class.....all talk, but no muscle to back it up.
What good is an organization if it cannot exhert pressure and succeed at its task, to preserve peace?? The UN clearly failed in this regard and Iraq. Iraq didnt bow to the Un and laughed att he weapons inspectors....
That chemical plant?? 100 acres?? How did THAT go un-noticed??
Hell, I would fathom to say that the local war protestors have more organization and power to get things done than the UN has in the past few years.
DZ
UN - Facts
by jwg
Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 8:30 AM
Don't believe everything "Dennis Miller" tells you:
The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights is Sergio Vieira de Mello of BRAZIL. But it could be mistaken for libya.
The Department for Disarmament Affairs is headed by Under-Secretary-General Jayantha Dhanapala of Sri Lanka.
so yes. go on, believe what you read.
RE: Not about liberation
by lowell
Friday, Mar. 28, 2003 at 6:00 AM
lowell_iii@hotmail.com
sam,
I enjoyed your well thought out comments, yet i find your final thoughts to be somewhat off-kilter. We did not invade Iraq for defying the U.N., directly. We invaded Iraq because President Hussein failed to adhere to the conditions of his surrender to end Desert Storm. By surrendering to the U.S in 1991 Mr. Hussein agreed to terms that included but are not imited to pulling his troops away from the Kuwati border. adhering to a no fly zone, and the destruction of his long range missle delivery systems to be overseen by the United Nations. The Iraqi leader accepted and signed off on this deal in exchange for the U.S.ending the war.
Mr. Husseins failure to accodate U.N. weapons inspectors did not have to prove that Saddam Hussein had Chemical or Nuclear capabilities to warrant an invasion, his failure to produce tangible results of the destruction of these weapons merely brought to light Mr. Husseins contempt for the treaty. He chose to blatantly disregard portions of the treaty to gauge the U.S reaction, much like a certain Eurpean country after "The Great War", If the allies of that war had banded together and shoved a couple of bombs down the throat of a re-arming Germany the U.N may never have come exist for the war that spawned it might have been averted or reduced to the status of a police action vs the carnage that was wrought on all sides.
Then again maybe there would be a valid point in allowing Iraq to ignore the treaty, I'm sure the Kuwaiti's wouldn't mind having Iraq come over for a visit, bringing a couple tanks, who knows maybe with the help of Fance and Russia Iraq might even be able to take the iranians after he's done It's not like saddam thinks of hispeople as any kind of chosen, or i don't know, arayan people. He wouldn't slaughter those in the countries like they were cattle would he. There's no way Mr. Hussein is that bad, right. So lets pull out of Iraq and let him know it's OK to go back on your word. Whats the worst that could happen, a reunited persian empire.
Could let me know which articles of the treaty would it take Mr. Hussein breaking before you would consider military action if it were up to you?
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