community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
I got arrested...
by Matt Walker
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 7:50 AM
Walkster1@aol.com
I got arrested.
Yeah, I'm a juvenile, and I got arrested. Not only were my wrists bleeding from REAL handcuffs, but the riot police took it upon themselves to physically assault me in the street. Nice guys.
Matt.
I got arrested also
by Misfit
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 8:50 AM
ETchewy@hotmail.com
well im also a jouvie. i got arrested by doing what the cops SAID!!! i got cought up in that mass arrest. cops kept swearin at me to do what i was told to do even though i was. pgh cops need to leard how to act professional. no wonder that have such a bad rep.
Dont bite the hand that feeds you.
by Dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 9:02 AM
Having been a dumb college kid once myself, I understand the passions that flow when you find "a cause" to hook into to be different than mainstream....it gives yo ua sense of being on your own and a sense of "doing something that matters".
But do these kids realize what the impact of their demonstrations can have?? Let's face it, we are in Iraq now and the goal now is to finish the job and get out, with the least cost to our family and friends fighting on our behalf.
Do these kids understand the costs we will pay if we fail? And do they realize that they are contributing AGAINST the good of our country? You may agree or disagree as to the "why" we are there....but we are. NOW we need to concentrate on getting back out successfully.
I wonder how they would feel if we DID lose this battle and we were instantaneously transported into a world where folks like Sadaam rule....I would wonder if these kids with their comfy colleg dorms (some paid for by the same government they criticize, by the way) would feel any different when their studies were changed from "Undecided" or "Musical theory" to whatever the government forced on them?
Don't bite the hand that feeds you, children. That used to be the first thing taught to kids as they grew up. I think we need to get back to that concept.
Finally, I find the latest protests (Thursday evening) unbelievable....accosting innocent commuters who may very well agree with you, blocking traffic causing strife simply because you want to be heard...How can you on one hand demand peace and on the other cause unrest?
Civil unrest and disobedience only diverts resources from other more important needs.
If you don't agree with why we are there, that is fine....the beauty of this country os that you CAN have this opinion and not have to die for it......try that in Iraq, and you are shot.
But don't you DARE cause more problems. If you don't love this country, you don't have to. You have the right to leave and live wherever you would prefer if you like.
But you do NOT have the right to cause problems for me and my family or to put ME in danger...and by diverting resources toward your silly protests you do just that.
As a kid you feel like you have the need to protest everything...at some point you grow up and learn how to disgaree peacefully.
Dont like handcuffs? Dont break the law.
DZ
one more thing
by .
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 9:23 AM
conform or die!
america america america.
Do as your told or you will be punished!
that is all
continue the protests
by Mel Packer
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 9:36 AM
I am a 57 year old father of two, my 11 year old son proudly protested with me last nite. I am a veteran of protests dating to the civil rights era and am extremely proud to have been part of last nite protests. Our job is to make sure that business DOES NOT go on as usual in the US as long as we are waging unjust wars and killing innocent civilians. We have EVERY right and even a responsibility to bring our protests to the street, block streets, disrupt traffic, stop business as long as our governemt acts illegally around the world.
There is no such thing as "growing up" and discarding this method of protest. The real name for this is compromise with this unjust system and captiulation to the status quo. The disruption we cause to others by blocking streets, making noise, being arrested, etc., is nothing compared to the disruption and even ending of the lives of people around the world using our tax dollars and pretending to act in the name of freedom. I see the results of this unjust system every day in my work as medical practitioner in a local hospital, where people come in unable to afford their medicines or basic health care. Is this not another form of terror?
Stop the war now by any means possible, do not be afraid, do not be intimidated, and do not stop. History and justice is on our side. We ARE the majority in the world, despite what Bush and his imperialist buddies would have you believe.
Oh puhlease
by Dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 9:51 AM
First off, your 11 year old son is not knowledgable enough yet to HAVE a justified world opinion...he demonstrated "proudly along side" of you because he is 11 and wants to be just like Dad, like any 11 year old.
Keep in mind that we are not just wreaking havoc in the world as you suggest....our money (your tax dollars) is used EVERYWHERE to assist OTHER countries in humanitarian and economic aid EVERY DAY. Hell, Turkey wouldn't even let us fly over their country unless we paid them.
So, while you are beating your peace drums, keep in mind that we are not just fighting Sadaam....
Like I said....It is an American right to disgree publiclly.
But to try and force your opinion down the throats of others by blocking traffic of innocent commuetrs is NOT the way to be responsible.
Hold your rallys, carry your signs.
But do it in a manner that doesnt inconvenience ME, because, in the end, all that does is make me disagree with You even more......You dont win people's opinions over by pissing them off.
As far as your comments about healthcare, etc....try living in any other country in the world...try Iraq. See how much excellent healthcare you can get for free. Most likely you will die first.
DZ
Your Rights
by Ian
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:03 AM
If you were physically assualted, contact either the folks at the ACLU or the Merton center if you would like to file a complaint, im sure that they can both help.
what did you expect
by dc
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:23 AM
Last week in Baghdad a young woman was run over and killed by a bulldozer for protesting. Please spare me the details of the abuse you suffered at the hands of the pgh. police- i.e. the handcuff scratches. Give me a break.
response to DZ
by townsend
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:32 AM
DZ,
I think that these kids DO realize the impact they can have. They are hoping for impact, because up until now our government has paid little to no attention to protests. President Bush said out right that he would not listen. These kids have been brought up to believe that this government is "by the People, for the People". THEY are the people just as much as you and your family and they are not being heard!!
Why do you look down on these kids for standing up for their beliefs? Would you prefer that they stay numb to the deaths that are being caused by their own country?
Why sir do you have the right to decide what "the good of our country" is when you are just one citizen but you wish for the protesters to just keep quiet? They are citizens too and they believe that the good of our country is peace.
Instantaneously transported into the world where folks like Sadaam rule? Do you know how long he has been the ruler of Iraq? Do you know that we supported him during the Iraq Iran War? With this statement above you seem to be denying the fact that the US has allied itself with other rulers like Sadaam. Maybe you should read up on the human rights violations of countries that the US government is very buddy buddy with.
you said: Civil unrest and disobedience only diverts resources from other more important needs.
So does war. It is costing us unimaginable amounts of money that should be used to feed people, house the homeless, help people get jobs. But instead this war is killing some of the poorest people in the world. How is that justified?
you said: If you don't love this country, you don't have to. You have the right to leave and live wherever you would prefer if you like.
PROTESTERS DO LOVE THIS COUNTRY. They are using the rights that this country gives them. This love it or leave it attitude is the most un-American way of thinking. Do you blindly accept everything that your government does? No I doubt that you do. And when you don't agree, you speak up about it just as you have done here. And if you're not being heard, I would hope that you would speak louder. THAT is what this country is all about and THAT is one of the things that makes it great. Do you know what happens when people do not speak out against their government? Do you know what happens when it is forgotten whose government this is?
You're right. No one has the right to put you in danger. But I have two points about this. The Iraqi people have been put in danger by the United States. Just as you should not be put in danger, neither should they. Point #2, Unfortunately our government made it pretty clear that peaceful protest is not going to be noticed and it will not change things. These protesters are desperately trying to stop the killing that has started. Have a little understanding for this sir. Have a little compassion for those in Iraq and those that are just trying to be heard!
GWI
by geckodru
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:35 AM
"As far as your comments about healthcare, etc....try living in any other country in the world...try Iraq. See how much excellent healthcare you can get for free. Most likely you will die first."
Before GWI, Iraq had free, high-quality health care. The health care is still free, but due to sanctions the quality is now terrible.
Iraq still has free education.
Yes, there's no freedom of speech, there's no room for political dissent, there are many human rights violations, but do not mistake the potential for these trends to pick up steam in your own country. If U.S. citizens do not guard our inalienable & constitutional rights, we will lose them and won't even have free education or health care.
Bulldozer death
by seb
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:42 AM
Actually, the protester killed by a bulldozer was an American killed protesting Israeli action. That was done by one of the US's allies, not Iraq.
Solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:49 AM
I just want to thank the dumb bitch for confirming the laws of physics. She'll make great fertilizer!
moot point
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:50 AM
DZ your point is moot. Who's shoving their opinion? Sound like u are!
solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:52 AM
Come down today earlier we brought a bunch of dog crap for your wounds!
Got what you deserved
by Joel
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:52 AM
Most of the people that were there were there to cause trouble.
Reality Check
by q
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:53 AM
for those that have been complaining about protesters...
it is obvious that you do NOT have full information on why we are hitting the streets. if you knew that the inspections were working, dispite what the adim says and despite what Faux News and others say, you would 90% of iraq weapons were destroyed. you would know that un inspectors were 'kicked out' of iraq in 98 they were oreder out by clinton as desert fox(bombing campaign)began. you would know that over half of iraq are children. you would know in the 80's and 90's the u.s. gov and western corp. that sold weapons, yes WMD as well, turned a blind eye to the murder of saddam. you would know that our vice prez DICK cheny, then the ceo of halliburton(i'm Sure you've heard of them before) has done millions and millions od business with saddam and iraq.(in fact even in 1998 halliburton had 73.5 mil in contracts with iraq-its not only the french who have oil interests) you would know that ABSOLUTELY NO_NONE_ZERO_ZIPPO_ZILCH-AROONIE-----THERE IS STILL NO LINK BETWEEN IRAQ AND 9-11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
do you know what it means to live democraticly? do you know WE, the people, have the right to be in OUR FUCKIN" STREETS!?! war and sacrifice are the reasons we have these rights, yes--but this"war" is not just-it simply is not just and i can not support this killing at all. the point to disrupting 'normal activity' is to make peeps realize this war is wrong-there will no business as usual. if people cannot sit in the comfort of their cars for 10-20 extra minutes while thousands around the world are suffering(not just in iraq-check out The School of Americas and learn about u.s. trained terrorist in south america...) project shock and awe will be the most intense bombing campaign anyone has ever seen.
my fellow burghers...i urge you to critically think about what is really going on in our world today. i'm sure i'm preaching to the converted but those who are not--this(disrupting the "flow of life") is not personal. but we are prepared to use our rights to fight this and other injustices. of course if the adim gets their way i guess we really won't have these rights anymore. then "THANK GOD!!!" everyone can go back to their business safe, sound and above all happy.
oopsie
by q
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:55 AM
i meant un inspectors were NOT kicked out in 98-but you knew that anyway.
solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 10:56 AM
Learn your constitution moron - YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO ASSEMBLE BUT NOT TO DISRUPT. Even dumb fuck Clinton understood that. Have carry permit and pray that you come early and attack my car.
SVC activist
by jw
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:00 AM
Man,
That is one of the most disgusting things that anyone could have ever said. Do you like killing innocent women and Children?
I misspoke
by DC
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:01 AM
I posted before realizing that I have Baghdad on the brain. The 29 yr. old Protester was killed in Gaza, NOT Baghdad-but my point is the same. You have the freedom to protest.
Solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:04 AM
And your innocence with being a PEACE RIOTER is where? Even the ARYAN nation and the KKK has more class than you slackers!
solzhen's a loser
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:04 AM
solzhen, don't you have better things to do than rant on a BB all day? You criticize violence but then you threaten others. No one hear cares to hear your inconsistent position/opinions. Go tell someone who cares whoever that may be.
Nice post...
by Dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:04 AM
Thanks for your thoughtful response.....very well written and thought out.....refreshing, actually...<grin>
But let me address a couple things...
First, I do NOT oppose anyone speaking their mind and demosntrating...in fact, as I said SEVERAL times, I am all for it as long as it is done peacefully. Accosting commuters and paper machines is not peaceful.
However, because a person has the right to speak his/her mind in this country does not give him/her a blank check to do it at "whatever cost".....I am GLAD that these folks are into something that they feel so strongly about at the moment. My problem is the "how" it is done, and the "whom" to which they direct their comments.
GWB did not say that he wasn;t listening...he said that the protests would not affect the campaign. There is a difference.
In the real world, simply protesting something DOESNT necessarily stop it.
As far as the cost of war, true war is not free. Lots of money and likely many lives, US and Iraqui, will be spent to accomplish the goals set forth. Some civilian casualties will happen....although in my own opinion, if I was told that my city would be bombed two days from today, I would most likely leave for a time by whatever means necessary out of sheer self preservation, or stand up and fight...either way, I affect my destiny.
But keep in mind that over the last 20 years of Sadaam's reign THOUSANDS of people have been killed by his own hand.....does no one remember that??? I saw no one protesting THAT activity....
We are attempting to remove Sadaam and his sons from power, because it is felt by our government and in fact quite a few Americans that that is the most advantageous for Iraq's people and in fact the world.
The UN, for 12 years, ahs been asking Iraq to disarm and to behave the way the rest of the workld asked them to. They have refused and in fact laughed in the face of the UN every time. How can the UN be of any substance in keeping the world peaceful if might isnt excercised occasionally?
Do we have anything to gain? Sure. It would be naive to think that 100% of this action is purely "to save Iraqui people". That is how politics and world power works, however, and whether you agree or not, that is how the world has always been. Those who don;t watch out for their own interests are trampled in history.
We haven't been able to remain a free country in as good a condition as we are in by ignoring problems abroad though. We step in when we feel we need to.
The rights that these protestors have to demonstrate and not be killed are partly due to the very activities that they condemn...that is my point.
Of course some will agree and disgaree....that is how it is.
DZ
solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:06 AM
So you want to disrupt my free speech now also?
solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:08 AM
Hell, I'm sending this sight to all my friends so that we can enjoy the format. Thanks!
Who Protects our Freedom?
by American citizen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:08 AM
Thanks Mel for reminding Dave Z and the rest of us that the anti-war movement (and related movements like the local People Against Police Violence--who will march on Saturday in the Hill at 1:00, so come join!) are in fact not a bunch of adolescents going through some kind of psychosocial developmental process in which protest helps them differentiate themselves from parents, society, etc. but are rather concernced citizens from all walks of life (and with many different political viewpoints) who recognize the need to defend our freedoms which are being trampled by international crimes done in our name and threatened domestically as well. Here's a brief quote from British journalist John Pilger, taken from the Z website, http://www.zmag.org:
"In 1946, Justice Robert Jackson, the chief prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials of the Nazi leadership, said that the "very essence" of international justice "is that individuals have international duties which transcend national obligations of obedience imposed by the state"."
So, Dave Z, maybe you could do a bit of reflection and ask yourself who is really defending your freedom, the US military who are busy brutalizing an already-brutalized Iraqi population who have already endured twelve years of US-sponsored aggression and sanctions, or the protesters you incorrectly and uncharitably characterize as misled, conflict-seeking college kids. Maybe if you figure out the answer to this question in time, we will see you today at 4:30 in front of the Federal Building!
Peace,
Ryan
solzhen's friends
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:10 AM
you have friends? Well, I'll be damned.
Typical not thought-out rhetoric
by Melissa
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:11 AM
mjb14@pitt.edu
"Do these kids understand the costs we will pay if we fail? And do they realize that they are contributing AGAINST the good of our country? You may agree or disagree as to the "why" we are there....but we are. NOW we need to concentrate on getting back out successfully. "
Whether we protest or not, the US government is going to be successful in Iraq. I highly doubt very many protesters, or even any protesters, had delusions of actually being able to prevent this war. The point is to show some dissent in this country. If the media is going to completely ignore our opinions (thus denying us equal and free speech) we need to do something to be heard.
"I wonder how they would feel if we DID lose this battle and we were instantaneously transported into a world where folks like Sadaam rule....I would wonder if these kids with their comfy colleg dorms (some paid for by the same government they criticize, by the way) would feel any different when their studies were changed from "Undecided" or "Musical theory" to whatever the government forced on them? "
First of all, this is a rediculous notion. It has no basis in reality. By protesting this war, we are in no way making it more possible for "folks like Sadaam" to take over the world. In fact, we are coming out for peace. Besides, this country has an unelected murderous president as well. History will likely view George W. Bush as worse than Sadaam for making conscious steps to destroy the environment, for declaring an "axis of evil" that causes countries on that said axis to feel the need to boost their weapons programs, and perhaps even for causing a nuclear war, although we will see about that. Bush does not have the moral high ground on this issue. He has not stopped funding terrorism (the School of the Americas, America's terrorist training school, remains open), he has condemned Iraq for violating a UN resolution that Iraq disarm and then he disregards the UN's opinion entirely, and it is very clear that his interest in Iraq is purely economic. "Folks like Sadaam," driven by greed and pride, have already taken over this country - we're trying to oppose them.
"Don't bite the hand that feeds you, children. That used to be the first thing taught to kids as they grew up. I think we need to get back to that concept. "
Once again, this concept is irrevelvant, not to mention paternalistic and condescending. But the last time I checked, dissent was allowed, at least in thory, in this country. Are you saying I should never disagree with the government because they "feed me"? Although I would argue they do not feed me, your objection is groundless on its face and typically not thought-out.
"Finally, I find the latest protests (Thursday evening) unbelievable....accosting innocent commuters who may very well agree with you, blocking traffic causing strife simply because you want to be heard...How can you on one hand demand peace and on the other cause unrest? "
"Unrest" and "violence" are not the same thing. If you care more about a car's ability to get by on the streets than about countless deaths, there is something wrong with you and I suggest seeking psychiatric treatment for your sociopathic tendencies. Our goal is to promote peace through non-violent resistance, which will sometimes be disruptive, but not seriously harmful. We make efforts to let ambulances through, for example. Americans need a bit of disruption - for many, the point of view that the majority of the people in the WORLD hold - that this is an unjust war. Stopping their cars for a little bit is not going to hurt them.
"Civil unrest and disobedience only diverts resources from other more important needs. "
Groundless and not thought-out. "More important needs"? What are you talking about? Is there a more important need than the need for peace? Are we starving people to death by marching in the street? Are we preventing houses from getting built or dirtying up the water supply? Because I can't think of any more important needs than peace except food, shelter, and water.
"If you don't agree with why we are there, that is fine....the beauty of this country os that you CAN have this opinion and not have to die for it......try that in Iraq, and you are shot. "
It may be so that you are shot in Iraq for showing dissent publicly, but you act as if there are only two options - the USA and Iraq. That is not so. There's also this place called Europe that does not support attacking Iraq where one is NOT shot for showing dissent. In fact, in those countries, one has MORE free speech, as media outlets are not dominated by a group of a few extremely rich men. How can you call our ability to dissent "the beauty of this country" when you both discourage dissent and when in other countries, there is MORE ability to dissent and actually be heard. This is typical uneducated patriotic rhetoric.
"But don't you DARE cause more problems. If you don't love this country, you don't have to. You have the right to leave and live wherever you would prefer if you like. "
That may be so for the very wealthy, but there is a great degree to which someone is stuck living where he or she is born. Although I in fact do plan on leaving this country pending college graduation, I have given a lot of thought to the rediculous "love it or leave it" attitude. First of all, one cannot leave here before the age of 18 without their parents support and consent. By the time you are 18, you have your whole life here - your family, your friends, not to mention that schools provide terrible training to live elsewhere by not seriously teaching foreign languages, recent world history, or world cultures. In order to leave, one must have money for plane tickets, long distance phone calls to procure a place to live, language training, and education enough that one has the ability to procure work in a foreign country to support themselves. Not everyone has these things. But besides all that, the notion that you either agree with this country or leave is rediculous. Aren't we supposed to try to change our government? Isn't casting off political dissenters to another country what Fidel Castro encouraged? As usual, conservatives tend to reiterate notions that sound eerily like the the people they profess to be against.
"But you do NOT have the right to cause problems for me and my family or to put ME in danger...and by diverting resources toward your silly protests you do just that. "
You were never in danger, but I already went through that.
"As a kid you feel like you have the need to protest everything...at some point you grow up and learn how to disgaree peacefully. "
In fact, we are already disagreeing peacefully. It sounds to me like you have not learned to "disagree peacefully," you've just learned to not disagree.
"Dont like handcuffs? Dont break the law. "
That makes as much sense as saying "Don't like cavities? Don't eat." Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to eat, but promote brushing one's teeth?
Nice call there
by jwg
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:11 AM
Man, calling the Aryan Nation and KKK a class act. at least we all know who you are now.
and also I've said before
ahem,
THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY _NO_ RIOTING!!!!!!!!
the police instigated the attack and perpetuated the attack. not one officer was struck and there was no property damage
solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:12 AM
Typical liberals, all insults and no substance. So is there a PEACE RIOT today and when? I want to attend.
PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
solzhen
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:14 AM
I'm still waiting for your substance. Nothing but hot air.
solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:15 AM
So your saying that the entire time you walked peacefully on the sidewalks and crossed with the right of way?
Solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:23 AM
AGAIN So your saying that the entire time you walked peacefully on the sidewalks and crossed with the right of way?
solzhen
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:25 AM
AGAIN, no one cares!
Last Night.
by unhinged
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:27 AM
"That stupid anti-war shit... don't they remember those two buildings fell!? They're a bunch of friggin' morons!"
"Yeah! THEY all should've been in those buildings"
(read with thick yinzer accent and lisp from missing teeth)
That's what greeted me last night as I sat down with a beer to relax at my girlfriend's indoor soccer game, after a couple hours of marching in opposition to war. It's obvious to me that most Americans are willing to correlate 9/11 with Iraq to make it easier to "get someone" since obviously the millions spent to find the original 'evil one', Bin Laden, has been over-hauled with a new 'evil one'. Reprogrammed into the average American's brain by a few speeches and bias newscasts. "Well, Saddam 'harbors terrorists'!" you might reply. I can only repond with facts... facts like Osama was trained by our CIA, like the 9/11 hijackers were trained in US flight schools and lived in the US prior to the attacks. Mute point then?
So now what? "They're all just a bunch of towel-heads"? Go ahead, that's probably what you're thinking anyway, if not something more ignorant. Let's face it, there's NO direct connection between 9/11 and Iraq, except in the eyes of those who seek revenge at any cost.
Now, for my thoughts on the protests.
Dear "innocent commuters" who've so wrongly had an hour of your precious time taken up by a civil protest,
do you write a petition to the Pittsburgh Penguins on days when you sit in traffic for a game at the Arena? Do you write to PennDot every time you sit in traffic due to construction? Do you write an angry letter to the police when you're forced to suffer through an accident-related traffic jam? Hopefully you do, so you won't be hypocrytical by complaining about a civil protest as being the cause of your delay.
People have the right of assembly. Period. Their assembling when it's "inconvenient" to an "innocent commuter"... happens. Have I had to pick an alternate route thanks to.. maybe the "Great Race", or the St. Patrick's Day Parade? Of course! I'm sure you've complained about that, too then? Here's my advice to those who were put off by a bit of traffic: turn on your radio. Sing a song. Listen to the play-by-play of the fuckin' war. Call your mother on your cell phone and catch up. Call your mistress to tell her you'll be late, and have some phone sex. Life's too short to spend that time in your car complaining or upset. Then again, if I have to tell you this, it'd take more than an internet site comment to explain myself.
To the marchers who wern't going to be happy until they got arrested: are you happy? Was your point made any further? Are you glad that most people, instead of hearing about a powerful anti-war protest in the streets of Pittsburgh, hear instead that over 100 people were arrested? Does that make 'our' point?
Marching downtown was awesome.
It made a great, powerful point. Those who participated and marched for what we believe in should be proud - I certainly am.
There comes a point, however, when you must realize that the power you've possessed through your protest doesn't need to be met with the force of the police. I followed the march to Carson St., where everyone broke off into an alleyway once the police stopped the march. It was dusk, you were heading down an alley with a shitload of cops breathing down your necks. It doesn't take a genius to realize that a confrontation that you're not going to win is going to take place. So what was your point, your final outcome - and how was your getting arrested any more powerful than the march? It wasn't. It only shed a more negative light on the process. Let's understand there IS ALREADY power in protest without violence. Isn't that what the march was about anyway?
PEACE.
lemme get this straight
by jwg
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:28 AM
so I guess what you're saying is that walking in the streets is a riot?
I don't know about this one, i think their needs to be some violence for it to be a riot.
solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:29 AM
And Melissa, so your saying that if I disagree with aborting innocent unborn children, then I have a right to disrupt an abortion factory. CORRECT! Even if it hinders a woman who is hemoraging from getting in?
Even if it ties up police who could be serving the community better? I challenge you poor - mommy didn't give me enough attention crowd - to hold your rallies in an open field. If your cause is just, millions will attend and your message will be heard. But NOOOOO, you have to first create a disturbance for anyone to pay attention to you because you know your cause is bullshit. Peace has never been obtained by being a lacky to a dictator.
Jaywalking=rioting?
by Ken Kaminski
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:33 AM
naaa1123@yahoo.com
Terroristic jaywalking on a massive scale! Everyone board up your windows, a guy just stepped out of the crosswalk outside my building. Why oh why won't the police protect me from this out-of-control rioter (by beating the shit out of him)?
---
by Dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:33 AM
We can go back and forth on the politics of the debate forever and no one will "win".....I still stand by my statement that if you don;t like it here, you can leave simply by buying a plane ticket and moving.
I dont care one iota if the protestors protest. They can walk naked down the middel of Grant street as long as they walk thru quickly and don't gridlock a city.
All I ask is that you leave me to my own life, where I have a schedule, a job and a family to tend to. responsibilities that must be met or else dire consequences ensue.
Call it "living blindly" or what have you. Maybe I am a puppet of the government. But my agenda should be as important as yours and your protests should not interfere with MY daily agenda.
Just leave me alone and don't disrupt MY life, much as I am not coming out to your dormrooms disrupting yours.
.....just remember your anti-government sentiments when you are in a bind ........or when you need a student loan .....or when your hometown is hit by flood waters and needs bailed out by the government.... or better yet when the next 911 happens
Did you folks forget how you felt that day? When the first plane crashed in NY, and then the second in DC? And then a third in our backyard?? Did you LIKE that feeling of shear terror and not knowing if we were next??
THAT is why we are trying to get Sadaam and others like him out of power. Unfortunate that we have to exert force to accomplish this, I agree.
Peacful measures are great when dealing with peaceful people. Some, however, live by the sword, as in Sadaam's case.
DZ
solzhen
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:35 AM
your arguments are very elementary. How old are you 10? 13 maybe. I'm guessing 13. puberty, is a rough time for many. ;)
...
by unhinged
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:36 AM
"love it or leave it"
that shit is, like... soooooo 40's, man!
A lesson in "freedom"
by Ken Kaminski
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:41 AM
naaa1123@yahoo.com
You see, ladies and gentlemen, people in cars have the freedom to use the roads, but people who are not in cars do not. Why, might you ask? Simple, cars cost a lot of money. Having one and using one signifies that you live an approved life style, and everyone knows that freedom is proportionate to wealth. So hey protestors, stop compromisng the freedom of motorists, and keep to what is appropriate for your status as pedestration and/or social ranking.
social ranking
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:43 AM
"socal ranking" that is so lame. THough, funny.
the Lies
by Nate
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:55 AM
I can't help but point out to the imbociles criticizing the protests on this board that these actions are also being taken around the world not just to counter the war effort, but to counter the blatant lies being sh*t out of the mouths of the people within this adminstration. The most obvious is, of course, the ridiculous claim of ties between Saddam and 9/11. I wish the majority in this country would realize that this administration is using 9/11 as nothing more than a glorified excuse to push through their arrogant and uncivil policies both here and abroad. Another lie is the claim that this is because Iraq has ignored UN resolutions for 12 years. Well what about the fact that Israel has ignored UN resolutions for almost 40 years, and Turkey (another US ally) has ignored them for 20. And these people that believe these lies are the same ones criticizing the French for threatening to use their veto. Well, what about the fact that the U.S. has vetoed 17 new resolutions since 1967 that would put pressure on Israel to withdraw from all Palestinian areas? The U.S. also vetoed, more the once, resolutions against aparteid in South Africa when it existed. The reality is that US foreign policy is, and has been for the better part of 60 years, utterly atrocious. So, before you criticizes others for mobilizing for change, do some research. You may find yourself right next to these people in the streets once you open your eyes. And, to all those protesting yesterday, fantastic job. Keep up the work!
solzhen
by steelhammer
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 11:58 AM
"your arguments are very elementary. How old are you 10? 13 maybe. I'm guessing 13. puberty, is a rough time for many. ;)"
Sorry Solzhen, but I believe it is you who suffers from a cereal box education. It is hard to believe you passed a low level english course with that sentance structure. Go home and practice.
in response to "unhinged"
by lookingfordona
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:01 PM
Your characterization of the arrested protestors is incorrect. No one was arrested when the march broke off of Carson St. The arrests started later, first when protestors were crossing the Smithfield street bridge and upon exiting police started charging into the crowd (that was on the sidewalk) and grabbing specific protestors. This is a well-known police tactic - those around the person are so shocked into submission. Later, the bulk of arrests happened when the police did a mass sweeping arrest. Most people where already walking on the sidewalk and many were arrested for not walking fast enough or not walking the right direction.
Nate, you ignorant slut
by Che
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:02 PM
Oh because the US has not done this or that in the past, or what about sucha and such ally that violates teh UN, blah blah blah, that the US can never act agasint anyone. that is just stupid. The next thing you know you will be saying that the US should invade Canada becasue Canada has violated some UN resolutino on fishing rights. Also, do your homework... there is a significnat difference between a UN resolution and a UN statemetn of policy or other diretive. AND then there are differences between the types of Resolutions. Not everythign the UN does has the force that UN 1441 does. Besdies, maybe GW is planning on invading Turkey (or maybe he will just give the Kurds a free state in Northern Iraq since the Turkeys backed away from the table on this one).
Dear Nate
by DaveZ
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:05 PM
"I can't help but point out to the imbociles criticizing the protests on this board that these actions are also being taken around the world not just to counter the war effort, but to counter the blatant lies being sh*t out of the mouths of the people within this adminstration."
Oh, so now that WE disagree with the protests we are "imbeciles"...??? Like that thinking process...."We are right and we have the right to have our opinion and you are an imbecile for having YOUR opinion."
I didnt need to read any further to understand the caliber of the person writing that drivel.
DZ
keep up the good work
by vitamink
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:11 PM
i am a 37 year old, tax paying, registered voter and homeowner in Pittsburgh.
i can finally say that i am proud of my city.
there is an amazing variety of artists, performers and musicians that get nowhere near the attention they deserve while chronically losing sports teams use my tax dollars for their playgrounds.
the city arrests and jail graffiti artists -apparently forgetting that it was once home to Andy Warhol and Keith Haring- while heroin use and deaths escalate.
the arts and culture that enrich the community and make it special suffer from a lack of funding while military and weapons research funding increases.
i am proud to have blocked the streets chanting for peace and am proud of all who joined me.
this is what democracy looks like
when the leaders refuse to listen, the people need to raise their voices
keep it up pittsburgh
you are making me proud to say this is my hometown
just please remember
KEEP THE PEACE
arrests do nothing but make us look bad and overturning recycling bins is just dumb
END TERROR IMPEACH BUSH
FUCK YOU JOHN ASSCROFT
I HOPE YOU ARE READING THIS
Pssst, zeus
by Ken Kaminski
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:12 PM
(I was being sarcastic)
to ken
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:13 PM
;) I thought something was strange.
Don't worry DZ
by Nate
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:17 PM
If you didn't read the rest of the comments, then that's good. You're obviously such a closed minded individual that it really isn't worth it anyway. Go back to doing whatever it is you do. Enjoy a drink on me while you're doing your duty as a good little sofa patriot. Sucking up all the biased information forced down your throat while watching your video game war. But, I'm sure you'll be the same person that starts bitching about this war when it starts to drag on and the cost becomes so outrageous, dragging the US economy further into the gutter and therefore hitting you in your precious pocketbook. One thing's for certain, you won't have to worry about getting stuck in traffic when you can't even get gas for your SUV because it's being rationed as it was in the 70's, or the price goes as high as $4.00 a gallon. It may sound like a stretch, but it's very possible still. Like I said above, do some research my friend, outside of the mainstream coporate media. You'll be surprised at what you'll find. And get back to me a few years from now when the full extent of the actions of this adminsitration are fully known and the majority realize that Governor Bush was the worst "president" in the history of this country. And don't come crying when you're rights are infringed upon at some point for the passing of the Patriot II Act that could slip right under the radar because people such as yourself refuse to open their eyes.
Oh my....
by Dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:19 PM
"the city arrests and jail graffiti artists -apparently forgetting that it was once home to Andy Warhol and Keith Haring- while heroin use and deaths escalate. "
HUH???? Are you equating grafitti with real art??
"the arts and culture that enrich the community and make it special suffer from a lack of funding while military and weapons research funding increases. "
Probably because people like Sadaam and Bin Laden arent attacking us and otehrs with artwork, or play scripts but with missiles and guns....duh.
"i am proud to have blocked the streets chanting for peace and am proud of all who joined me. "
You are proud that you knocked over a few paper machines and held up moms and dads rushing home to pickup their 3 year olds from daycare??
"this is what democracy looks like "
Only to those who dont understand democracy....by the way, we live in a republic, not a democracy. Check the books.
"when the leaders refuse to listen, the people need to raise their voices "
And nothing gets the message across like turning over paper machines...yep, that says "we are serious!".....
"KEEP THE PEACE "
Well, at least THAT I can agree with....
"arrests do nothing but make us look bad and overturning recycling bins is just dumb "
ANOTEHR ONE! AMEN! THERE IS HOPE!
"END TERROR IMPEACH BUSH
FUCK YOU JOHN ASSCROFT
I HOPE YOU ARE READING THIS "
Oops....sorry...lost me again......Yep, "impeaching" a president is gonna solve the problems. Why is it that the one "solution"
to everything seems to be "impeach them" ???? Did you think about voting the right folsk in TO BEGIN WITH!??!!?!?
DZ
Oh, please
by Melissa
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:20 PM
mjb14@pitt.edu
"We can go back and forth on the politics of the debate forever and no one will 'win'.....I still stand by my statement that if you don;t like it here, you can leave simply by buying a plane ticket and moving. "
First of all, who are you quoting when you put the word "win" in quotes? Cartainly you were not quoting me. I would really appreciate it if you'd stick to the rules of quoting. Throwing quotes around any old word is misleading. But that's a very minor point. I think I made my argument that it's not so easy to just leave, but I'll talk about it even more if you still don't understand. It is completely unfair to say "If you do not agree with the unjust policies of this government, I suggest you uproot your whole life and put it elsewhere so that I don't have to be bothered with you and all your silly caring about people being killed. I find it inconvenient and frankly, I don't want to think about all the people I'm indirectly responsible for killing by blindly supporting the government. Certainly it makes more sense for you to change EVERYTHING in your life by going to a different country than for me to learn a little bit about history and wait an hour in traffic."
"All I ask is that you leave me to my own life, where I have a schedule, a job and a family to tend to. responsibilities that must be met or else dire consequences ensue. "
We all have those responsibilites, even protesters and even college students. But your "dire consequences" fail to impress or compell me compared to the dire consequences of the war in Iraq, which is death of innocent people, further political unrest in the middle east, increased anti-US sentiment and in turn increased anti-US terrorism, and possibly nuclear war. Am I supposed to say "Who
cares about all those consequences? We have to get Dave to work on time!" You're being awfully greedy and self-centered to think that.
"Call it 'living blindly' or what have you. Maybe I am a puppet of the government. But my agenda should be as important as yours and your protests should not interfere with MY daily agenda."
While I agree that you have equal right to push your agenda, the fact is that only your agenda gets pushed by the corporate media monopoly. You certainly don't have MORE right to push your agenda than I do. Furthermore, why would you admit to being uneducated, a "puppet of the government," and then claim that that is a legitimate agenda? I would believe that your agenda was legitimat if you were to back it up with historical facts or good old-fashioned reason, but unfortunately you fail to do so.
"Just leave me alone and don't disrupt MY life, much as I am not coming out to your dormrooms disrupting yours. "
Once again, an unfounded, illogical statement. First of all, there is definitive paternalistic tendencies in assuming I live in a dorm room and implications that I somehow am irrelevant if I did, in fact, live in a dorm room. But also, this statement assumes your attitude does not disrupt my life when, as a peace-loving person, your desire to kill innocent people DOES disrupt my life. In fact, it forces me to have to take to the streets and protest, a huge disruption of my life! I have a job, family, and school to attend to, and I'm forced to do this crap! This "disruption" argument is silly. Life does not run like clockwork. So called "disruption" is part of life as well. What IS disruption? How does one define it? What IS the difference, as someone pointed out above, between traffic caused by protesters and traffic caused by a football game? I guess that the difference is that protesters disrupt YOUR life (which is unacceptable) while a football game disrupts MY life (which is just fine). I could go on about this, but hopefully you've got the point.
".....just remember your anti-government sentiments when you are in a bind ........or when you need a student loan .....or when your hometown is hit by flood waters and needs bailed out by the government.... or better yet when the next 911 happens "
I pay taxes and the government owes me education and flood relief. I cannot think of any time the government would help me "in a bind." And if it were not for the government's policies, we would not have had a 9/11. The government is more than willing to use my tax dollars on wars I don't support, but it will put you through hell and high water if you want a student loan - and then you have to pay it back! There is something wrong here.
"Did you folks forget how you felt that day? When the first plane crashed in NY, and then the second in DC? And then a third in our backyard?? Did you LIKE that feeling of shear terror and not knowing if we were next?? "
No, I didn't forget that. But did YOU forget that Iraq had nothing to do with that? And did you forget that US foreign policies CAUSED that? Or did you believe Bush's lies that the terrorists hate our freedom? If that were so, why didn't terrorists attack Amsterdam? They're a hell of a lot more free than us.
"THAT is why we are trying to get Sadaam and others like him out of power. Unfortunate that we have to exert force to accomplish this, I agree. "
You know, a lot of people in the world think Gearge W. Bush is evil. Think of how pissed off you'd be if some other country declared war on us to enact "regime change"! "Others like him"? Don't pretend to know history - it's not working.
"Peacful measures are great when dealing with peaceful people. Some, however, live by the sword, as in Sadaam's case. "
And in George W. Bush's case.
to DZ
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:22 PM
Maybe the military has a BB that would be more apt to voice your views. no?
Melissa
by Ken Kaminski
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:27 PM
naaa1123@yahoo.com
Putting a word in quotes is often used to indicate that one does not mean to use a word with it's full connotation. It's a very common thing to do.
POLICE POWER
by Joe B. Cop
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:28 PM
Remember next time when your house is being broken into, your mother is being assaulted and your sister might be raped------DON"T CALL 911 and request the police to help you. Handle it yourself.....SInce all you protesting fucks are so independent (HANDLE IT YOURSELF).....
not a republic
by Nate
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:33 PM
Actually, I'd like to point out that, although the format of our government is along the lines of a republic and democracy, the reality is that it can only be described as a plutocracy.
Responses
by Melissa
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:37 PM
mjb14@pitt.edu
"Putting a word in quotes is often used to indicate that one does not mean to use a word with it's full connotation. It's a very common thing to do."
Common, but incorrect. But whatever, it's practiacally irrelevant. I'm just suspicious of it because it is all too often a subtle propaganda tool.
"Remember next time when your house is being broken into, your mother is being assaulted and your sister might be raped------DON"T CALL 911 and request the police to help you. Handle it yourself.....SInce all you protesting fucks are so independent (HANDLE IT YOURSELF)....."
Actually, I called the police only a few days ago when I heard someone calling for help. That's what the police are for - to help people who are in trouble. Unfortunately, they abuse their power to arrest protesters, beat up black people, and force people to take off shirts that say "Give peace a chance." I'm not against the police in theory, I just think that the police should recieve better education as to the constitution and that they should not abuse their power. Besides, I don't think we were claiming to be "independent" here. Do you have to take everything as an attack against cops? I think you're projecting.
Love to ALL people, even police.
Melissa
solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:38 PM
Damn, went to lunch and to check the streets for an opportunity to peacefully disrupt - nothing. And Zeus, thanks for showing your colors, no substance just insult. Melissa has way bigger balls and brains than you. Your probably a PEACE RIOTER organizer that stays at home to watch WIGGER WORLD on MTV.
But in all honesty I do want to thank you guys for allowing me to get out of work three hours early and still get paid on your tax dollars. Thanks again!
solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:43 PM
That's right Melissa. Diversity is Love and love is Diversity. Love to the Aryan Nation, KKK, Black Power,
Nazi's, Communists, Rapist, Murders, Jews, Liberals, whether you agree or not, you got to love us all in this new Diversified, and beautiful, world.
I LOVE YOU ZEUS.
Now please, come down and protest early, OK :)
to solzhen
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:45 PM
lack of substance and insults, something that you're guilty of. Self reflection would do you some good.
solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:45 PM
That's right Melissa. Diversity is Love and love is Diversity. Love to the Aryan Nation, KKK, Black Power,
Nazi's, Communists, Rapist, Murders, Jews, Liberals, whether you agree or not, you got to love us all in this new Diversified, and beautiful, world.
I LOVE YOU ZEUS.
Now please, come down and protest early, OK :)
hmm...
by jwg
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:47 PM
so let's see.
you love the Aryan Nation and KKK and rapists and work for the federal government...
no wonder people hate you, you're a walking 'bad government' stereotype, kid!
solzhen the close-minded hick
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:48 PM
why are you here? what is your reason? What do you hope to accomplish? Why do you rant? I'm sure you don't have a good reason but I'd love to hear your attempt to explain?
Humor
by cj
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:48 PM
Around 5:30 last night (after I abandoned the march to go find my car and a cold beer), a thin brunette hailed me at the corner of 5th and Wood. Obvioiusly stricken, she breathlessly asked "excuse me, have you seen a protest around here?"
Nobody's ever asked me that before.
If you're out there, rock on.
frustrated and curious
by DC
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:48 PM
Where is everyone getting their political facts that they spout out at random? I am at a point where I don't know what to trust from all I read because everyone who writes and reports has an agenda for writing whether hidden or not . Where do you turn for TRULY unbiased reports and facts? How do you know that what you read is the truth and you aren't just a big breathing pawn promoting someone else's ideals?
I do think people have the right to protest. That's fine-just don't be a jerk about it . I work downtown and there is a very large protest assembling as we speak. I just hope that everyone who is protesting is doing it because they really know what they are protesting about. I hope they can actually point out where Iraq is on a map. I've seen some intelligent arguements for the protest posted here, but I can say I pretty confidently that there is probably a decent number of people out there today who couldn't make a rational arguement as to why they are standing in market square holding a sign. I hope the news interviews a good cross-section of individuals to get their opinion-I'd like to hear them.
As for freedom of speech, how does everyone who protested last night feel about the fact that our national anthem was booed in Montreal during the hockey game? I'm glad Mr. Rogers wasn't around...as far as I'm concerned it wasn't very neighborly.
by the way-Some of the comments on this page are just plain mean and crass-- I know it is just everyone taking out their anxiety about the war, but come on, tell me something useful...
Peace, love, and political discourse
by Melissa
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:49 PM
mjb14@pitt.edu
"That's right Melissa. Diversity is Love and love is Diversity. Love to the Aryan Nation, KKK, Black Power,
Nazi's, Communists, Rapist, Murders, Jews, Liberals, whether you agree or not, you got to love us all in this new Diversified, and beautiful, world. "
Well, yes. That's basically what I'm saying. Love everyone. Even if you don't love their actions. Although I never said "Diversity is Love and love is Diversity." Love is love, plain and simple. It was that thing that Jesus asways talked about. Having love in your heart for everyone.
But anyway, that's going off topic. I don't believe that the arguments I've made have been refuted or even addressed by my opponents. If you want to talk about love, you can email me, or we'll do it on a different board.
to solzhen
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:51 PM
I'm already down here. I'm the big guy with the laptop and the wireless Inet connection. Come over. I'd like to meet you.
misunderstanding children
by child of our society
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:52 PM
In regards to all those who see these protests as a truly useless means to make us feel like we are doing something-at least we are. These protests are peaceful- protesters are not going after other people, injuring them by throwing rocks, or beating them. The protesters are merely using their rights...indeed these are our streets...and what better way to make a point than to take to the streets where people cannot simply ingnore you by turning the channel or hanging up on you. These peaceful protests are meant to let others know that many are NOT ok with war and violence. These protests are also an attempt to get people to realize they can do something about the situation, ...a people united shall never be defeated... these protesters are in fact more patriotic than most everyone thinks. These are the people who are standing up for our rights to freedom. these are the people who make people think. These are not murders and liars, or people blinded by greed. These protesters are truthful, faithful, and devoted to a cause that would better the world. PEACE. so maybe instead of complaining about how your commute or class was interrupted for a few minutes, you could think of something larger than yourself, larger than this nation...think about the people -mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers- all over this world.
In closing, i would like to ask you- would it be ok if i saw you murdered and said nothing?
to point out ignorance to Che
by Nate
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 12:58 PM
It's "Turkish" not "Turkeys" when describing the people of that nation. And, they were all UN Resolutions described above. Here's the list for the Resolutions against Israel:
http://www.musalman.com/news/musalman-UN%20resolutions%20against%20Israel.htm
here's a list of the UN Resolutions against Turkey:
http://www.justice4cyprus.org/un_reolutions.htm
and here's a list of all the UN Resolutions vetoed by the US:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0303/S00085.htm
And just so you know, there has never been any Resolutions posed against anything in Canada to this date.
Loser!
by Joe
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 1:06 PM
Maybe if you weren't causing chaos and blocking traffic like an idiot, you wouldn't have been arrested. People are only arrested when they are doing something WRONG, which causing violence in the streets is wrong to me. I'm glad you were arrested, Im sure you deserved it. So don't go blaming the police for arresting you. I fully back them up and I am glad that they were there to stop people like you from causing more violence in a world that is already crazy. Why don't you get a life and quit disrupting others?!?! And stay off the streets of Pgh!!!!
Dear Joe,
by unhinged
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 1:10 PM
Please do a favor to ignorant people like yourself and keep your mouth shut. You're painting a bad picture to the safe robots who wish to remain blindfolded.
People only get arrested for doing something wrong
is possibly the most idiotic statement I've heard in a long time.
Open your eyes, or keep your mouth shut.
BAN CHE INDYMEDIA FOR SUCH ABUSIVE LANGUAGE..
by BILL
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 1:12 PM
Nate, you ignorant slut
by Che � Friday March 21, 2003 at 12:02 PM
INDYMEDIA SUCH LANGUAGE SHOULD NOT BE PERMITTED ON THIS FORUM BAN THIS CHE
Dear Joe,
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 1:12 PM
I agree with unhinged. Unconditional support of police and government is very a very dangerous position.
BAN CHE INDYMEDIA FOR SUCH ABUSIVE LANGUAGE..
by BILL
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 1:12 PM
"Nate, you ignorant slut
by Che � Friday March 21, 2003 at 12:02 PM"
INDYMEDIA SUCH LANGUAGE SHOULD NOT BE PERMITTED ON THIS FORUM BAN THIS CHE
solzhen
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 1:28 PM
where are you dude? My battery is dying. I'm waiting here to meet you.
Uh Sorry, Melissa?
by Dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 1:39 PM
Why do I assume you live in a dorm room? Because your whole argument reeks of the "I'm gonna make a difference damn the establishment" sentiments that college kids typically have, while completely distorting EVRY single one of my statements, none of them based in how the real world operates.
I won't waste my time going point by point to refute what you said I said....
I just find it SO interesting that *MY* opinion seems to mean so little yet YOURS is "the right one"....
Nuf said.
DZ
solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 1:57 PM
Give me the corner and I'll be there in 5 minutes Zeus.
Just left USS but need to go back.
Bill, you censoring and opressing Hate pimp
by Che
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 1:58 PM
Oh it is fine for you "activists" to call someone a "hick" but Me you want to censor. You want to stifle my opinions. You want to remove the only voice of reason on this entire BB (and obviously the only one wiht any respect for humor ... they are still Turkeys from where I sit).
solzhen
by zeus
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:02 PM
end liberty ave The fish market. I'll be there for 10 min then I'm going to get my other battery.
Please...
by Dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:11 PM
Solzhen...
While some of your comments are on target, there is no need to go personal attack mode....
Like the destruction by the activists does no good for their cause, this type of verbal bashing does nothing for YOUR cause....
Please chill on the racial and sexual comments....
DZ
message boarding
by andy/pittsburghimc
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:20 PM
i dunno if you guys just don't realize that this isn't meant to be a message board, or if you're just trying to jack us all off, but if you want to message board, please go to a message board. this newswire is for news. you're undermining our efforts to democratize the media.
Yeah, but....
by DaveZ
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:28 PM
If your true idea os to have a "newswire" then you need to post that at the beginning and also have some method of screening or logon.....
When I found this site, I started reading and couldnt believe how SLANTED some of the articles were, and assumed itwas a BB.....
Keep in mind that "democritizing the media" should be done RESPONSIBLY......being extremely one sided reeks of doing exactly the opposite of this.
If on one hand you criticize the "mainstream" media for being too conservative, isnt hosting articles that are purely liberal doing EXACTLY what you claim to be against??
Anyways, off my soapbox on this topic.
you dont seem to get it
by andy
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:32 PM
anyone can post. it just so happens that most of the people who do are progressive/radical. we're not a "liberal newswire."
also, the point is getting as many people involved in reporting the news as possible. that's why we don't have logins and stuff. open-publishing.
we don't track people, and we don't ban people. you're just ridiculous is all, and obviously pretty irrelevant to the world if you sit in an office spamming "liberal" websites all day.
democratizing doesnt mean using abusive words to make your point..
by Bill
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:34 PM
using abuses tomake your point is not what this forum is for. if you have brains argue without sexist racist comments or leave this forum as there are several places waiting to lap up such abusive language.
Purpose of Indymedia
by emma
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:36 PM
emma@indypgh.org
The Pittsburgh Indymedia's mission statement is this:
The Pittsburgh Independent Media Center is a voluntary collective dedicated to serving the local community with a system for disseminating print and online news. Our coverage will be the issues and events ignored by mainstream media, and also those issues that mainstream media covers with the inherent bias of a news organization run as a business. We believe that the job of disseminating information does not belong to a privileged class of reporters and editors, but to everyone. It is our duty as citizens to act as journalists so that the public knows the truth in every instance, not just when the truth is to our political and economic rulers' advantage. We seek to be an inclusive organization which will grow as a community, and not as a hierarchy.
That means that you are welcome to post the news as you have witnessed it. It is not a message board. The purpose of the comment system is to provide information about somebody's article (ie, if they've gotten a date wrong, if they missed a crucial detail), not to bicker. There are plenty of message board forums for that.
To help democratize media, we need help. This is not intended to be a radicals-only club. For example: If anybody was able to attend the People Against Police Violence action today, we'd appreciate a post about that.
News Wire ??
by Che
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:36 PM
FROM YOUR OWN STATEMENT ON THE COMMENT PAGE:
Guidelines for Commenting on News Articles
Thanks for contributing to PGH Indymedia's open publishing Newswire.
Your response article can be in any format, from academic discourse to subjective personal account.
Please keep it on topic and concise.
NO WHERE DOES IT SAY NEWSWIRE. NOWHERE DOES IT SAY LIMIT TO NEWS ARTICLES. DO YOU JUST NOT LIKE DISCOURSE WITH ANYONE OTHER THAN THOSE THAT AGREE WITH YOU.
solzhen
by solzhen
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:37 PM
Hey Zeus, If you get a chance, check out CNN, one of the most beautiful pictures I've ever seen!
News Wire ? Correction
by Che
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:40 PM
Sorry, I meant to say nowhere does it define Newswire. ALl that the statemetn says it that it is part fo the Indy Media Newswire project. But nowehre does it set out what that newswire is to be. However, you ask for our "comments" to articles. Sounds alot more like a discusion board than anythign else.
from the editorial policy
by andy
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:41 PM
The Pittsburgh IMC editorial collective reserves the right to "hide" posts to the newswire that
* are comments to a post that do not pertain to the original post.
that's what it says. and we will use that right if you do not stop.
don't be close-minded
by Melissa
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:47 PM
mjb14@pitt.edu
"Why do I assume you live in a dorm room? Because your whole argument reeks of the "I'm gonna make a difference damn the establishment" sentiments that college kids typically have, while completely distorting EVRY single one of my statements, none of them based in how the real world operates. "
I would be willing to except that as a critisism if you were to explain to me how exactly my argument "reeks of the 'I'm gonna make a difference damn the establishment' sentiments." What in particular have I said that sounded that way? I believe I've stayed pretty reasonable and spoken of fact and reason. And, even more importantly, which of your statements have I distorted, and in what way? If you give me some examples and some reason, I will gladly evaluate your opinion, adjust my statements to more accurately portray my own opinion, or even apologize if I got something wrong or was unfair to you. However, so far you have offered me no counter-arguments, nor any examples of how my statements are not based on "how the real world operates."
"I won't waste my time going point by point to refute what you said I said.... "
It seems you're willing to waste your time writing other things of little relevancy - parhaps you should redirect your time into the much more effective and logical activity of refuting what I have to say.
"I just find it SO interesting that *MY* opinion seems to mean so little yet YOURS is 'the right one'.... "
Once again, you use quotes when you are not quoting anyone, and certainly you are not quoting me. Amthough there is the implied belief whenever anyone expresses their opinions that he or she believes those opinions to be right, I have never been called closed-minded by anyone who knows me and I doubt that my posts on this thread could be regarded close-minded either. To be close-minded, one must disregard what another person has to say rather than consider it and respond to it. That is, unfortunately, what you are proposing that you are going to do - simply not allow my arguments, however accurate they may be, to register in your head.
So I appeal to you to be open-minded. If you disagree with me, write specifically why. Do a play by play. Make your voice heard.
Peace and love,
Melissa
Andy, You censoring Oppressor of Open Forum Discussion
by Che
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:49 PM
So will you remove all of these posts .. or just the ones that make you uncomfortable. I am really beginning to beleive that this organization is a hypocritical farce. These boards have been very active with discussion (all of which has had about as much effect on the casue of peace or war as your wrongheaded acts of civil unrest and selfishness did yesterday), but it is fun nonetheless. You twits can't even be happy with the fact that you may have just engaged peopel to come to this backwater of the Internet for a while. You are unnerved that there are peopel out there that do not agree with you. OG on beleiveing that the "majority" of Americans agree with you in your safe (if not open) discsion. The fact is that most people do not share your views or respect your methods. So there.
Censor me. I am proud to be censored for my bbeliefs whihc you will take down for no one else to see. I am proud to be censored with all of thoese that get censored with me for merely expresing their opinos. Hey at least we didnt mees up any flower gardens or destroy any papaer boxes in the proces. Censor me. Censor me. My thoughts are only dangerous to your feble world of fantasy. Never give up the cause my firends. EDUCATE !!!
???
by dave Z
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 2:51 PM
"we don't track people, and we don't ban people. you're just ridiculous is all, and obviously pretty irrelevant to the world if you sit in an office spamming "liberal" websites all day."
Ok wait a sec.......
Is this response aimed at me??? I simply asked a question, since the issue of this being a "newswire" came up...and now I am "ridiculous"? Legitimate "newswire" forums use logons to make sure that real news gets thru and that it doesnt turn into simply anotehr BB.....
Sorry if my comments seem like spam to you or anyone else.......however, if you have radical views posted in public and you leave it open to public posting, you are GOING to get opposing views posted...
Offering a public forum to folks who have legitimate "news' is great...but so far, it seems like 80% of what I have read is simply radical rhetoric or calls to action to protest at gas stations....HARDLY "news" material....
Call my post spam if'n ya want though.
But remember...right on the board it says "leave a comment".....thats what I did.
DZ
You want news, I try to give you news
by Che
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 3:02 PM
I don't know how leaving a dead jackass in Market Square makes your point, but maybe your could send someone down there to get it rather than censoring my posts.
Dead Jackass?
by DC
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 3:04 PM
Che- What are you talking a bout a dead Jack ass in Market Square? Are you serious or am I just gullible?
Your thinking is thoroughly muddled. Wake up!
by ac
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 3:04 PM
> continue the protests
> by Mel Packer � Friday March 21, 2003 at 09:36 AM
>I am a 57 year old father of two, my 11 year old son proudly protested with me last nite. I am a veteran of protests dating to the civil rights era and am extremely proud to have been part of last nite protests. Our job is to make sure that business DOES NOT go on as usual in the US
---
We are witnessing the self-destruction of the anti-war movement.
It's not surprising. The movement couldn't get its message straight and it could not come up with an alternative to war. It could not even support Iraqi citizens.
It unthinkingly knelt at the altar of Saddam Hussein and, along with the U. N., made the war inevitable. It let itself be used by Marxists whose message was never to stop the war, but to force a war to help make a case against Bush. And the movement expressed surprise that the support for Bush increased to 71%.
Now, in a final act of self-immolation, the movement is determined to alienate the rest of mainstream America with its determination to use force on ordinary citizens by shutting down "business as usual." Unable to see past its nose, it cannot see that it has become what it supposedly has protested against.
ac
p.s. Thanks to all the citizens of San Francisco who came out for the first "Citizens Arrest Action." Through your efforts, more than a dozen protestors who broke the law were restrained for arrest. As the anti-war movement collapses into irrelevance, we won't need to make many more citizens arrests.
DC - Dead jakass
by Che
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 3:08 PM
Yeah, there is a dead jackass in Market Square. I thought someone form your protest group should go get it. Besides, when things like this happen it is always importnat to notify the next of kin befroe moving the deceased.
Che
by DC
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 3:13 PM
OK. I'll call your mom.
thanks for the good work DC..
by ...j
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 3:27 PM
go ahead and call the mom
Why We Must Be Disruptive
by dm
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 3:53 PM
From http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15434
"We have tried traditional avenues of influence. We have lobbied our politicians. We have marched in permitted rallies millions strong. We have signed petitions, prayed and held vigils for a peaceful solution. We have broadcast pleas from the Iraqi people to stave off the looming war against them and their families. Yet these pleas have fallen on deaf ears, and none of our efforts have proven successful.
We must now use what remains of our democratic heritage: the right to use nonviolent civil disobedience in the tradition of the Boston Tea Party, the women's suffragette movement and the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. We are aware that our attempts to shut down the Financial District will inconvenience many people. While we and others may suffer disruptions and lost wages on this one day, ask yourself, "What is a human life worth? What are the lives of thousands of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians worth?"
GET A CLUE PEOPLE!
by shut_up
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 4:30 PM
How can you people call yourselves Americans? This isn't the 60's anymore people! You think Saddam, Osama, or any other terrorist out there cares about your peace marches? Ha! If any of you would like to change citizenship to one of their countries, and have them test their chemical / biological weapons, go ahead. This country would be better off without your spineless kind of people in this country! Flower power won't cut it this time people!
Dude, where's my bong?
by Pig Hater
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 4:45 PM
Dudes: Like I was protesting yesterday and me and my crew were smoking this killer weed that we got from this dude up by the arena. Welp, somewhere along the way, I was so stoned that I forgot where I put my bong. I remember setting it down on a City Paper vending machine, and when I turned around to hack wit my boyz, it disappeared. Course, Mope still had this HUGE bag of dope in his boxers, so we just picked up some newspaper and rolled a couple of big fatties. Anywayz, if any of y'all see a sweet bong that looks like Buddah, track me down at today's protest. I'm the dude with the dreadlocks and the black t-shirt that says Pig Hater on it.
Thanks. Peace out.
haha
by Evan N
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 4:47 PM
How can we call ourselves americans? so now american isnt all inclusive? Did our forefathers fight for freedom and democracy so we can sit around agreeing with each other? no! dissent made america what it is there is no denying that.
i got arrested too
by Justin klebba
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 5:14 PM
I went to the protest yesterday and i was only told 1 time to disperse and when i tried to disperse i was pushed up against the wall and arrested. The my chain was cut off my wallet and the police kept it. asked if i would get it back and they said probably not.
.I am american.
by PePPy
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 5:32 PM
peppytx@hotmail.com 412-531-4859 1306 mississippi
"How can you people call yourselves Americans? This isn't the 60's anymore people! You think Saddam, Osama, or any other terrorist out there cares about your peace marches? Ha! If any of you would like to change citizenship to one of their countries, and have them test their chemical / biological weapons, go ahead. This country would be better off without your spineless kind of people in this country! Flower power won't cut it this time people!"
I am an a american, i live in america. because i want to change something, this makes me un-american?
That doesn't make any sense. I love america, I hate killing. 1 dead is one too many. We are not doing this because we want osama or saddam or any other terrorist to care. we are doing this for the people. so that they don't have to die. I dont want saddam in power any less than anyone else in this country. I probabally want it alot more, since i know the sickness of him. I think he should be stopped! but not at the cost of peoples lives. why don't we send special forces in to capture him? we are big bad ass america arent we? the greatest country in the would as nationalists might say. I don't have pride in my country that kills. If you do then thats fine. Your are right in saying this isn't the 60's. it is 2003. in the 60's we would just go over and "bomb their ass".
People that want peace are spineless? i didn't know that? This is a war for oil! This is a war for power!
Peace, love and unity xoxoPePPyxoxo.
www.angelfire.com/emo2/intro.html
oops!
by PePPy
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 5:49 PM
peppytx@hotmail.com
my site is
http://angelfire.com/emo2/peppy/intro.html
sorry about that, it has somethings about my statements of war. and society and the way kids act.
Response to "frustrated and curious"
by geckodru
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 7:08 PM
@speakeasy.net
Finding facts is quite difficult. I listen with the realization that most people do not know the honest truth. When I hear several disparate sources repeat the similar information I start accepting what is said as factual. The other times that people get by my disbelief is when someone says something that is obviously not going to benefit their cause. For those people who say something that is the honest truth, thank you, but I'm still going to question the facts until they are confirmed.
Some facts that you'll commonly hear from the peace protestors is the toll on human life caused by war and by sanctions. Many sources have lists of the deaths during and as a direct result to environmental impacts of the war. The U.N., WHO and several other conservative international organizations publish information on casualties. U.S. published their estimates. Iraq published theirs. I do not find it unacceptable to list the fact as a range until some authoritative source is published. So between 75k-200k Iraqis died as the immediate cause of the first Gulf War. At least another 500k died after because of sanctions and health issues.
There are many examples of facts just like that that can vary depending upon the source presenting them.
There are other facts that are not well publicized or at least not publicized in mainstream media. Among those pertinent to the current protest is how U.S. Military conducted itself in the first war. The figures given for deaths at the highway of death and bulldozer attacks on trenches vary wildly. What is at issue is that those who were no longer willing to fight were not given a chance to surrender and non-combatants were then being targeted.
Here are two random URLs about the two incidents mentioned. If you search google, there are many accounts and conflicting reports of these incident.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/appendix/tdeath.html
http://www.intellnet.org/resources/american_terrorism/HighwayofDeath.html
The protests in America and abroad will continue. In U.S. the protest is intended to let everyone know that life here should not be moving along as normal. I and many other people believe that the U.S. government has made a terrible mistake. For me the war is terrible, the repurcussions of public fear and fervor is as terrible. I talked to several police officers and people who were frustrated and angry about the marchers. What I hear from many people is disheartening. People believe that U.S. not only has the right, but the duty to identify potential threats and eliminate them. Islam is on the American hit list. North Korea is on the hit list. People are even willing to put our close allies on that list if they get in our way. I have seen belligerent drunks with more sense.
Though many people protesting do not know all the reasons for being in the streets, whatever reasons they have are good enough by me. A large percentage of people can be convinced by silence that they are alone in their beliefs. For many people who do not have those clear convictions, silence and solitude can be enough for them to give up. We keep speaking, not because the politicians are going to listen, but because we cannot allow those swayed by solitude to be alone.
When the crowds in Montreal booed the American anthem, we should have a clear notion of how distant we are from our closest and honest friends. The response to the anthem is frank criticism from a country that considers their polite and neighborly demeanor a badge of honor and pride. I'd hope they'd not see reason to stray from that image and am quite sorry that the behavior of the U.S. is the cause of their change of manners.
If Mr. Rogers heard the crowd booing, I'm certain he'd think it wasn't too neighborly, but he'd most likely identify with the sentiment. Mr. Rogers believed wholeheartedly in peace and the brotherhood of mankind. War destroys all he valued. He said that it takes courage to love and trust. It does not take courage to hate and fear.
Don't break the laws!!!
by dudical
Friday, Mar. 21, 2003 at 9:41 PM
dear people in the streets,
i would like for you to follow the laws that the almighty US Government set for us. Marching in the streets without a permit is illegal. You need to learn by example of your rulers. They don't break the laws, they create them or change the meanings of them to suit their interests. Sometimes they may ignore international law, but who is going to enforce that? France?
You are all under citizen's arrest for jay walking and for caring about the deaths of innocent people.
purpose
by Lacy
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 12:19 AM
The truth is actually quite contrary to your statements Joel. People came out on thursday to voice their disapproval. There was actually a very strong sense of acceptance in the air amidst hugs and kisses between protestors. To say that people marched to cause trouble is an unfair and false statement. In regards to the man who accelerated towards me hitting me with his car, I say that he was completely in the wrong. He could obviously see that I was standing in front of his hood and still felt it appropriate to let his foot off the brake. I don't support anyone who damaged his car. The police were the aggressors yesterday. I was standing across the street from a group of about thirty or so that were peacefully standing on the sidewalk. The cops surrounded them and asked them to disperse and when they didn't move the cops sprayed some of them with pepper spray and abusively arrested others. One of the problems in this situation was that there was no chance for the people to disperse. There wasn't space for them to disperse to. The cops had them crouching together in a clump and immediately arrested them. The police were the ones that were out to cause trouble, not the peaceful people walking on the sidewalk.
Another Arrested Juvenile
by Reyna
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 2:25 AM
xdesolatetearsx@comcast.net
I was at the protest last night, and arrested at 15 for a just cause. It's just completely asinine how much authority police have over us citizens.
Obstruction of traffic, disorderly conduct perhaps and failure to disperse? If our police thought that we were obstructing traffic, and they knew that Merton Center didn't have a permit for Thursday's rally, then why were we not stopped sooner? At the command to disperse, we were given about 5 seconds of reaction time, and then cornered by police officers and pushed against the wall for our arrest. When you tell a crowd of hundreds to disperse, you should allow a sufficient amount of reaction time for protestors to separate without breaking other laws in the process (i.e. jaywalking or eluding a police officer).
Spending 5 hours in the Municipal Building was not the funnest thing in the world. At most I think we are going to get a fine or community service. The charges may even be dropped. Regardless, I'm going to check out the meeting for those arrested.
For anyone out there who protested alongside my friends and I...I support you all the way. Hopefully I can participate in yet another rally or protest soon enough.
(if you were arrested, call Merton Center 412 361 3022 for info in participating in a meeting with a free lawyer.)
I have so much to say but its so late and the whole situation just makes me sick. I think I might just go to bed now.
Peace, Love, Unity.
*Reyna*
Dudical, we have become indoctrinated
by New World Odor
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 2:46 AM
Well said Dudical.
You struck some chords with me...
'almighty US Government ' - pretty much idolizes Government to 'God' status. A dangerous pitfall that promotes false patriotism.
'You need to learn by example of your rulers' - many see them as RULERS because they act that way. Many of these 'many' will also not realize that the president is not meant to rule but represent. This country is meant to be a Republic, but it has become a democracy which has since become close to a dictatorship. Seing the President as a Ruler is the very way the people behind the Bush regime (the same peaople bihind Clinton) want us all to 'think'.
Nowadays, the President pretty much RULES by Decree, ever since the initiation of the War Powers Act of 1933 (still in effect and renewed during each presidency) plus the combination of the, Unconstitutional, Executive Order mechinism (it sits outside of the constitution). There is much evidence to stongly suggest that we have not been in Constitutional Law since 1933 - at least for any meaningfully extended period.
Marching in the streets without a permit is illegal. That is correct. It is, However, LAWFUL - which I doubt many will understand the difference. The reason you need a permit to march is as a result of the War Powers Act and the extension of it's effect - which put a stop to constitutional law and turned the people of America into 'enemies of the State'. That is enemies of the State, and not state. One belongs to the corporate government (US inc.), the other belongs to the people. They won't teach you this in schooling, because they don't want you to know.
I'll ask any of you who will be making an appearance in court to ask the judge any one of these specific questions:
'Is this a constitutional court ?'
'Is this a court of constitutional law?'
'Does the constitution of the *country* known as the The United States of America apply to me in this court?'
you may be in for a shock.
you might also want to ask why the flag behind the Judge has got gold trim around the edges. (clue: it's not for decor.)
gold trim
by person
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 12:31 PM
Oh I give up, won't you just ell me what the gold trim around the flag is for??
hippy goons
by Jeffrey
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 12:50 PM
Some news for you goons (taken from http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030321-023627-5923r):
A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."
corect link
by JD
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 4:57 PM
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030321-023627-5923r):
A dead jackass??
by Troy Shelley
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 9:33 PM
axelfear@yahoo.com
WHY DO PEOPLE WHO ARE YELLING AT US FOR "BEING VIOLENT" AT THE PROTEST, ADVOCATING VIOLENCE THEMSELVES' TOWARDS US IN THE MOST PHYSICAL SENSE.
A THREAT AGAINST ANOTHER PERSONS' BODY OR HOME CAN BE DEFENDED AGAINST IN THIS COUNTRY WITH "ANY MEANS NECESSARY".
REMEMBER THIS WHEN YOU COME ONTO MY PROPERTY AND TRY TO HARM ME OR MY EIGHT ROOMMATES. WE HAVE MORE WEAPONS THAN YOU, AND WE WILL NOT HESITATE TO DEFEND OUR HOME!
AND TO THE PERSON WHO STARTED THIS CHAT WAR WITH ALL OF US, YOU NEED TO BE A LITTLE MORE TACTFUL. I ACTUALLY LIKE THE FACT THAT THERE AREN'T ONLY ANTI-WAR PEOPLE ON HERE. I THINK THERE HAS TO BE A BALANCE IN EVERYTHING, EVEN IN PROTESTING. IT IS JUST A MATTER OF NOT HURTING ANYONE PHYSICALLY.
LOVE,
TROY
www.geocities.com/axelfear/axel_fear
Gold trimmed Flag
by New World Odor
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 9:44 PM
The Gold Trimmed Flag is International code for military/Admiralty/martial Law. In a courtroom, it Supposedly represents that the court is subject to Admiralty Law (maritime) and you are not in any way protected by constitutional law.
I did come across some links to some very interesting evidence of this being true. It included some video taken at a court session at a Supreme Court. When asked, The judge refused to disclose whether the court was a constitutional court or not!
If I find the relevant links, I'll post them...
CONSTITUTIONAL COURT OF JUDICIAL DUE PROCESS ?
by New World Odor
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 10:06 PM
Found It!
Found a link to a related example of evidence of unconstitutional Law in process.
http://www.avoiceforchildren.com/ballot_title/
SUPREME COURT JUDGE ROBERT DURHAM CANNOT SAY HE IS IN A CONSTITUTIONAL COURT OF JUDICIAL DUE PROCESS
See this for yourself-
as a QuickTime movie
or in Real Player format
or as Windows Media format
or listen to it in MP3 format
THE MOVIE - ORAL HEARING VIDEOTAPE
See the videotape of the Oregon Supreme Court oral hearing that exposed a corrupted government in 2000.
yeah i was in there too
by --Name removed on request --
Saturday, Mar. 22, 2003 at 10:47 PM
-- email removed upon request --
yeah i was in the county jail from about 8pm thursday to 6 am saturday. if anyone has any media or links to it of the arrests such as photos or video please send them to me. this was such an injustice. i hope that everyone that was in there with me is ok now and just as pissed off at the whole situation as i am. this is what we get for trying to practice our constitutional rights. i feel especially bad for the press that was arrested, people with cameras should not be thrown in jail by riot police (no one should when they are peaceful). people were not rioting the police were. i might write my own personal account of what happend but for now i just want everyone to know that your support of everyone who was in jail has been really great. after spending about 30 hours in jail i am more motivated than ever to expose this entire situation for what it is. i can't spell and my foolish dad called us comunists. thanks again to everyone who was outside the jail while we were inside with our cival rights being raped and revoked. i normally wouldn't post my real name or email address but this is really important and i really want to discuss this with some people who were in there and out front protesting for us. i'm sure i'll see alot of you on monday, and Mike if you see this give me an email or something.
Love, peace,and HUMAN RIGHTS!!!!!
the man....
by Troy Shelley
Sunday, Mar. 23, 2003 at 5:17 AM
axelfear@yahoo.com
Hey man. Since you and I were released from jail I have been swamped with people asking me all types of questions about the real events of that day. Unfortunately I also found out that the jail is a "closed system" which means the inhumane treatment we received whilst incarcerated there is not usable in court. Since this is the fact, we must focus on the actions of the police from that day.
And also RED PREDATOR, your threats are childish but if you want to try anything, bring it.
Love
Troy
www.geocities.com/axelfear/axel_fear
Rachel Corrie not a protester
by Amir Flesher
Sunday, Mar. 23, 2003 at 9:22 PM
Just to clarify, Rachel Corrie the 23 year old American woman who was run over and killed by an IDF bulldozer was not a protester. She was a member of the International Solidatirty Committee, a group that aims to distrupt the IDF in the occupied territories.
Now I think that the Israeli occupation is brutal, and that house demolitons are inhumane and assinine. But I also think that standing in front of oncoming bulldozers is assinine. Really, it's about as intelligent as standing in the middle of Forbes avenue during rush hour.
I mourn for Corrie, I really do. I think its tragic that she was killed. On the other hand, you've got to wonder what in god's name she had in mind. What was she or her group achieving by harrasing Israeli soldiers, most of whom probably don't even want to be there. Its really kind of obnoxious behavior. Imagine your'e a ninteen year old israeli kid driving this bullzoer, you have to do this, you don't necessarily want to, and this girl is shouting at you and standing in your way.
Its also really stupid to put yourself in harms way like that. You go to a warzone, and you run the risk of getting killed.
Standing in front of an oncoming bulldozer is probably not one of the ten smartest things that Rachel could have done.
Closed System
by Evan W.
Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 12:02 AM
It's my understanding that what happens in jail is fair game, especially for a Section 1983 suit against the state for civil rights violations. Who told you that it wasn't, Troy? Now, maybe name calling would not be covered under this, but other stuff would be. Come down to Pitt Law School on Monday, 6:30, I believe, and talk to an attorney about this stuff. See what they think.
thank you geckodru
by DC
Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 1:31 PM
I appreciate your response to my posting. In general I have no problem speaking my mind- however when it comes to war, I feel as if I am far too uneducated with truthful facts to make a really informed decision about what my stance is. I don't want to be a sheep, but in the back of my mind I think "what do I REALLY know?" I am doing my best to educate myself, but there is so much information and so many different issues you have to consider--human nature: greed and political motivation, history, global economics- It is overwhelming and I don't know if I will ever consider myself truly informed. Nonethelss, thank you for taking the time to suggest some resources that may help me.
Ur no patriot
by Tom
Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 11:28 PM
sublime2386@yahoo.com
stop protesting? no! why? this "great nation" is built on the power of the people and everyone has to stand up for what they believe in, hell it might not be any good but neither are wars on abortion but people keep fighting for what they consider a just cause. Anyone who says stop the ptrotesters just support the troops is not a true american a true american fights to make things better with out making every one conform
I GOT ARRESTED
by RICK O'SHEA
Thursday, Apr. 03, 2003 at 4:27 PM
I GOT ARRESTED YEEAAHHH!!!!
I GOT ARRESTED YEEAAHHH!!!
WELL YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN SCHOOL!!!
BUT THEN AGAIN, YOU KNOW EVERTHING SO WHY GO?
Should have been in school
by Dr. Pepper
Thursday, Apr. 03, 2003 at 9:25 PM
I really object to the comment: "Should have been in school". I am like many other demonstrators, and have a job.
With regard to school, unfortunately 122 people got quite an education on March 20. We learned how the Pittsburgh police operate. We learned how a conservative magistrate can make up his own rules and ignore a court order concerning Pittsburgh residents.
We are about to also learn how slow the wheels of justice can turn when you are innocent!
blah!
by jetflock
Monday, May. 31, 2004 at 8:37 AM
stop saying "the government does _____ for you! don't knock it!" its the government's job to give us protection and care. they should be doing more for its people. this nation is not free, and it is not just. people here want to change it, to make it better. this is a class system, serving the rich. sadly, most people are brainwashed, most people don't know true freedom.
(hi ken!)
Why I can't get to where I'm going
by Kendy Dieudonne
Monday, Jun. 21, 2004 at 1:45 PM
kdieudonne@hotmail.com 305 681-0136 1889 N.W. 112terr
Why ?
I've been through about 100 interviews and still I'm unemployed; why it got to be like that. Why can't people all over the world hear my music or see my dream to making a street hood Movie? Tell me why it is so hard to get your point across without battle from the people.
All my life life been gravy (alright) things used to be great when I had a job working for great Companies such like the State Department of Agriculture making $11.04 a hour life was wonderful until Bush became President in 2001; I got laid off from the job thinking it is going to be okay tomorrow I'll another job, but I need a job that has money to cover my pervious and current lifestyle. I continue to apply at most companies for money to pay my bills and expenses; it's been a month now my savings is going low is it me or people just don't have any work at the time. I can't give up now it is been 4 months still no job my saving has been used all up now I'm borrowing from friends and family I'm I out of luck or it’s not my year; so what do I do? All my say just do a little hustling on the streets and the money problems will go away; sure the drug money sound good, Why not I'll just do it until I get a job BOOMMM 9/11 comes now you know jobs has limited; I'm stuck in the illegal world selling this garbage to others. When will I get out of this mess and get a real job who knows the money is good but the environment and consequences sucks, watch your back for haters (dislike people & enemies)and most of all the polices; BAAMM! They got me with Possession and Intent to Sell charge now I'm in jail WHY WHY WHY? "If I had a job none of this would of happen maybe it's a reason I got caught I probably would made drugs my destiny." Plead not contest and release for Probation I got a valet job for six months then became a Porter at Billboard Live which pays more than the valet. Billboard Live went out of business now back to square one wait my father knows this guy who is the GM of Uhaul. Hired as a Customer Representatives but first as a rookie the GM had me clean up the storage area everyday for six hours of my time in the hot area with no A/C to keep me going this job sucks but I’ll have to maintain it or back to the street with Probation on my back. The GM said after 3 months you get a raise not bad for starters then the news hit; my GM got caught by the Fedz and the DEA for Heroin. The Assistant Manager became GM which was great because we were friends, The Uhaul job is getting better; 3 weeks passed and Uhaul got a new Assistant Manager which is black like me "I love this job!" Yeah right reality check; The new Assistant Manager doesn't seem to like me always telling me to do things I wouldn't normally do, but that's okay because I'm getting paid for it; More pressure coming from the Assistant Manager it was like a wind full of hate from the AM. “I ask Why my brother”? He replies “You’re not my brother brother get back to work,” I worked and worked; working for every penny Uhaul pay me. Whatever happens to my raise it has been 5 months now and still no raise. More problems occur money missing from the register the AM blamed on me "but I don't work behind the register no more the AM don't want me to work there remember” but the AM said you could be reason the moneys' missing; what a nightmare then they fired me for something I didn't do. 2 months later I and my sister came to Uhaul to rent a truck and they have a new AM because the other one was stealing from the register. Now I can't get no job no where else cause of my felony what should I do, but I attend school full time to keep myself busy. School can't feed me or pay the bills so I’m still searching for a job. Talking to people on how to start my own business they just tell you the problems or tell me I need a lot of money to start, yet not tell me the way I can become successful in business. It’s been a year and a half now how come I can't get a descent job. Scense my incident I've been doing everything making music and Home Movies and I realize this is what I like to do write and perform but I seems that’s just a fantasy world because I'm not getting paid for my projects WHY? I try to talk to people on how can I be heard how my music can get out there or how my small time movie can get viewed. WHY can't we do what the other are doing to get airtime. I have no job no income WHY? I tried and tried and still I’m unemployed maybe it’s because I was born not to make, maybe it’s to discourage me or make me stronger. I just want to know WHY I can’t get a second chance. I love to write and make music and movies. WHY can’t I be successful in the Media Biz.? Someone tell me Why?
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