Right Silly Arguments
by Mark Drolette
Tuesday, Jul. 27, 2004 at 6:25 PM
drolette@comcast.net
How come so many screwball claims about the left from the right come right from left field? Why don’t conservatives balk at throwing so many verbal wild pitches? How many really bad baseball analogies can one introduction contain? Fret not: A look at a few of the ongoing dippy assertions made about liberals is now at the plate.
One of my favorite Monty Python bits involved the "Ministry of Silly Walks." I have begun to think perhaps there should also be an "Agency of Silly Arguments"--a building appropriately equipped with an obsolete, dangerously unstable right wing--considering how many (stereo)typically daft contentions I regularly hear from those who disagree with me politically. It's not that folks on the right don't have valid points, because obviously (at times) they do, but some of the things emanating from that direction sound like they come straight from some book entitled "Really, Really Dumb Ways to Try to Make My Point--Whatever It Is." Are there just as equally dimwitted things said from the left? Yes, but this is my column, not yours--so nyeah, nyeah, nyeah, nyeah, nyeah. (That was just for example's sake.)
OK, first, some housekeeping: Name-calling is NOT debating. I know this might be a difficult concept for some at first, especially for those who have done it since just after (or before, or maybe even during) birth, but there's pretty much nothing I haven't heard, and most of these didn't quite attain knee-slapping level even on their maiden passes. Some of my, uh, "creatively challenged" critics think it's original and witty to employ variations of my last name. Believe it or not, this has already been done. Granted, I didn't hear the first one until I was well into my twos, but nonetheless, you're just a tad late. As timelessly hilarious as are "Droolette," "Do Little," and, of course, the classic "Droopy Drawers," you really don't want to be trying to steal someone else's prime material, now do you? If you are an inveterate name caller and still aren't quite sure whether it's time to move on, here's a sure-fire test for you: Take out your driver's license (provided your home state allows you on its roads), and look at the birthdate. If the year's prefix is "19," the last two numbers don't matter: You are too old to call people names--period. Stop it now.
All right, time to move on and address silly argument #1: Voicing political dissent endangers American troops in Iraq and aids the enemy.
First, let's view the weird dichotomy contained in this claim: Rationalizations for invading Iraq have changed more often than a check forger's signature, but the latest (false) one is that America attacked Iraq to actually help it, by benevolently bestowing our God-given gift of democracy (including, one might assume, freedom of speech) to the Iraqi people, even though they didn't really ask us for it. Strangely, though, according to this argument’s champions, it's just not OK to try this annoying First Amendment crap at home.
But that contradiction is obvious, so here's what I see as really bizarre about the first part of this knotheaded assertion: Just offhand--and this may be a little hard to follow so, please, stay with me here, but--and again, this is only my best guess--it would seem that the troops were most likely endangered by.……………...THE MAN WHO SENT THEM THERE!!!!! (Color-coded, diagrammatical chart showing how this conclusion was reached available upon request; instructional video included.)
As for dissent voiced in America "aiding the enemy": Just how, exactly, does this work? After at least a minute of deep thought, I imagined the following scenario taking place somewhere deep inside Iraq:
"Captain Abdullah, sir, our Iraqi Insurgency Division of American Dissent Monitoring has just picked up some anti-war chatter from a couple of college students in Boise, Idaho."
"Hmm...How would you describe it, soldier: mild cynicism, angry disillusionment, or stupefying outrage?"
"The last one, sir."
"All right, then, by Allah, that's the threshold we’ve been waiting for. Immediately send out a message across Iraq, from the largest cities to the smallest villages, via our Super Secret Communications System--you know, the one with the tin cans and the very long string--and tell everyone that we have received the critical message to attack."
"Should I break out the smoke signals, too, sir?"
"Yes, by all means. We sure don't want to miss an opportunity like this."
"Yes, sir. Will do, sir."
Well, I must say that, at first, this claim seemed to be fairly ridiculous. However, after closer inspection, it now appears monumentally inane.
Silly argument #2: Lefties hate America.
You know, I see how uber-conservatives could hysterically say this about me personally since I have the DeGaulle to often praise the land that, in their world view, is a giant breeding ground for America’s arch-enemies: France. The argument might even have some traction if liberals as a group were, say, leading a NASCAR boycott, because it's hard to get more American than stock car racing. But we're not, and I've always thought the focus of this assertion has been slightly off anyway: I don't think it's as much about hating/loving America per se, but rather much more about what one thinks of American VALUES. You've heard of 'em: things like liberty, justice, equality, human rights, representative and participatory democracy, just to name a few. And if you look real closely at that last one, that's exactly what lefties (and righties, and middies; or is it middlings?) are doing when they speak up about what they see as wrong or right (maybe I should say: “correct”) with America. The following should be obvious (though apparently not to everyone), so I'll state it for the record: People become active and vocal because they LOVE America’s ideals and want to promote their more consistent application, not because they hate anything.
As for me, here's ironclad proof I care deeply about my country and that for which it stands: I force myself to read entire George Will columns. I do not do this for pleasure (this is called an "understatement"); I do it from a sense of duty as an American, to be as informed as possible. And, boy, let me tell you: Some days, I have to give it two or three shots (Jim Beam preferred; at least, it would be if I still drank) before I can make it to Will's closing line. If that ain't love for my country, it don't exist. (I do not, however, make myself listen to Rush Limbaugh. This would be crossing the line from love for America straight into depraved masochism.)
Silly argument #3: Liberals dine on infant flesh. (Whoops, wait a sec...I'm sorry, my assistant tells me though this one’s been conceived, complications have arisen during development. There's no chance conservatives won’t insist on its eventual delivery, however, whether it’s wanted or not.)
Silly argument #3: (corrected): All liberals love Bill Clinton.
Oh, please!! For one thing, I don't, so that disproves the theory right there. But beyond that, plenty of people of the non-conservative persuasion can't stand him, if for no other reason than that Clinton's mere existence has sent dittoheads and their kind into banshee-like apoplexy for years, and shocking though this may be, there are a handful of us who are actually just a wee bit weary of the shrieking. Shameless self-promotion time (in keeping with the Clinton theme): I wrote a piece (link at bottom) showing why Bush is SO much worse than Clinton could ever dream to be, even in Bill's most conniving, sex-obsessed, money-grubbing, lying, sleazy pardoning, liberties-squelching, sick fantasies. (Hey, did I get the right rant right? For a much more comprehensive and realistic, albeit over-the-top, recitation of Clinton's transgressions, replay any Limbaugh show from the last twelve years; the pre-rehab ones are the best.)
Silly argument #4: Liberals are against the war because they're pacifists.
I realize saying, "That's about as dumb as a sack full of hammers," is not considered a mature counter-argument. But seeing as how I have recently been diagnosed with MDD (Maturity Deficit Disorder), I feel medically excused to say: "That's about as dumb as a sack full of hammers," though this may be slighting the hand tools' collective IQ a bit--and quite possibly the sack's. (I assume I'll now hear from the HADL [Hammer Anti-Defamation League].) This silly argument is so tempting to use, I believe, because it lets the speaker off the hook from doing any menial-type work, like thinking. If one just categorically states all anti-war sentiment stems from pacifism, then no pondering is needed regarding other reasons that may exist for protesting the war, like perhaps it was in reality a needless, senseless, unjustified, illegal, immoral, brutal, long-desired American imperialistic assault. Yes, these are finely-nuanced, hard-to-see details which, admittedly, could very well take all of up to a few seconds' worth of contemplation to discover, but the precious time spent should well be worth it.
A snide corollary often accompanies the all-pacifism, all-the-time charge: "If liberals had had their way in World War II, we'd all be speaking German." Ignoring completely that it was one of the American left's all-time heroes, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who—for years--pushed for U.S. entry into the war in opposition to entrenched domestic isolationism, this is also an absurd and defaming attempt to somehow conflate the world-saving Allies' defeat of Germany and Japan in World War II with the diametrically differing circumstances surrounding Iraq and Saddam Hussein. Besides, why is it always "German"? What, there’s something wrong with Japanese? Sure, it may harder to learn, but German is just so, well, "Old Europe."
Silly argument #5: Liberals are Marxists.
This one's true, at least for me, and frankly, I've never seen what the big deal is. The Marx Brothers, at their comedic peak were not only hilarious, but brilliant social commentators, too. As for the non-actor brother who became an author--Kyle, I think his name was--I've never read him. I assume he must have also been something of an important figure in the textile industry, as I've heard a lot over the years about Marx and linen.
Silly argument #6: Liberals disdain personal responsibility.
Apparently, we left-wingers should immediately chastise ourselves for our unrelenting fecklessness, and begin following the administration's sterling lead of accepting responsibility in all matters like: its lackadaisical treatment of pre-9/11 warnings; the phony Iraq war justifications; insufficient protection for American troops; no post-war exit strategy; detainees' torture; the blowing of Valerie Plame's CIA cover; withholding from Congress accurate cost information about the Medicare prescription drug bill; the EPA's lies about New York's air quality after 9/11; the "average" $1083 tax cut hornswoggle; swearing to uphold the Constitution and then proposing to amend it to enact unequal rights; the trashing of decades-old international alliances; the lack of an intelligent energy policy to help wean America from the poisonous oil teat, the…oh, wait a moment, please. (It's my assistant again.) What's that you say, Emily? The president hasn’t taken responsibility for ANY of these things? No kidding?? OK, then, readers...never mind.
Additionally, the right has done its level best these past few years to make patriotism a hot topic, so let's see how this applies regarding "personal responsibility." The most basic responsibility any patriot has is to defend the Constitution, being duty-bound to take action whenever he or she sees our basic American law threatened. Now, I certainly understand that attaching little American flags to car antennas, singing along with Toby Keith and applauding his big ass-kickin' boot, making cracks about the French, and listening to Limbaugh making cracks about us, all run a very close second on the old patriotism scale to actively raising loud, long alarms about the Bush administration and its ongoing shredding of, and utter contempt for, the Constitution. But, hey, since they're so doggoned close, let's call it a draw, OK?
Silly argument #7: Liberals hug trees.
I've never, ever hugged a tree--ever. I have, however, certainly embraced my share of bushes--floristically-speaking, of course. I had to give it up, though, when our current president was appointed: The psychological implications were just too icky.
All righty, that's it for today: I have to hurry to my “How to Engage in Class Warfare and Elitism and Not Show It” course over at the Kumbaya Center. But if I have convinced just one person who employs any of the above ditzy claims to stop--well, it's not nearly enough, but I guess it's a start. For those of you who just can't help yourselves and insist on carrying on the baleful tradition of using right silly arguments, might I suggest you gently grab your dog (if you don't have one, any dog will do; just put it back when you're done), sit that puppy down, and yammer on. Be forewarned, though: Don't be surprised, if at some point, the animal yawns, gets up, and walks away, for even a canine's love for mankind has its limits.
To read why Bush has out-Clintoned Clinton, go to:
http://newjersey.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/12259
I Know What You Mean!
by Church McMillion
Saturday, Jul. 31, 2004 at 4:14 PM
Email@LiesofBush.com

http://liesofbush.com/
Very good, Mark. Unfortunately, your words are much needed.
Just today I was accused of being a terrorist,
a paid arm of the left wing conspiracy (I wish),
a drug user,
a liar,
Hippie sewage,
Chairman Mao,
A Punk,
and a TROLL (One who purposely and deliberately starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers).
My response was:
I don't see how being coherent and discerning can be attributed to being on drugs.
It’s just another example of “Blame the Messenger.” It is also a last-ditch effort by the neo-cons and their henchmen to divert and obscure the issues.
I just try to concentrate my efforts in educating the undecided voters and those that are uninformed. Keep up the good work.
Appeasers are our friends
by Appeasers are our friends
Saturday, Jul. 31, 2004 at 7:01 PM

Thank You
by Church McMillion
Sunday, Aug. 01, 2004 at 8:21 AM
Thank You "Appeasers are our friends" for digging around in the websites of the neo-fascists to come up with a very entertaining and apropos example of #1 in the above essay:
Dissent against what a patriot sees as an abuse of power being associated with treason.
Keep digging for more of these absurd concepts that are meant to divert from the real issues.
Appeasement is patriotic
by Irving
Sunday, Aug. 01, 2004 at 11:20 AM

Orwell would be pleased....
Hey, Irving
by Mark Drolette
Sunday, Aug. 01, 2004 at 2:45 PM
drolette@comcast.net
I'd be truly interested in reading a logical explanation of your following cryptic and unsubstantiated claim: "you hide behind 'patriotism" to Appease (sic) terrorists."
If, however, your "argument" will just consist of more name-calling, insults, aspersions, and posting of silly pictures, don't bother replying. Been there, seen that, just wrote about it.
i
by i
Sunday, Aug. 01, 2004 at 5:57 PM
Irving and Mr Drolette are on the same page intellectually.
been there, read that, it STILL sucks
by Irving
Sunday, Aug. 01, 2004 at 7:05 PM

Perhaps you didn't understand what I said the first time, so allow me to elaborate. Thank you.
Your writing sucks the Big One, and it's loaded with the same old unoriginalcrap you'll get every single day from adolescent sloganeers.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll bet my last dime you're one of those bloggers.
yawn.........
Appeasement is cool!
by JDW
Sunday, Aug. 01, 2004 at 10:29 PM
Appeasement is like, so, like cool, like totally....

Appeasers
by Go it alone
Wednesday, Aug. 04, 2004 at 6:27 AM
The US should withdraw from the UN or take unilateral action against the only middle eastern country with WMD's (Chemical/Biological weapons, smallpox aside, are incapable of 'mass destruction'). Maybe if Hussein had better lobbyists, he could still kil with impunity. It works for the rogue 'nation' of Israel.
Below is a partial list of UN resolutions that the appeasers didn't enforce or the US vetoed:
Resolution 252 (1968) Israel
Urgently calls upon Israel to rescind measures that change the legal status of Jerusalem, including the expropriation of land and properties thereon.
262 (1968) Israel
Calls upon Israel to pay compensation to Lebanon for destruction of airliners at Beirut International Airport.
267 (1969) Israel
Urgently calls upon Israel to rescind measures seeking to change the legal status of occupied East Jerusalem.
271 (1969) Israel
Reiterates calls to rescind measures seeking to change the legal status of occupied East Jerusalem and calls on Israel to scrupulously abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention regarding the responsibilities of occupying powers.
298 (1971) Israel
Reiterates demand that Israel rescind measures seeking to change the legal status of occupied East Jerusalem.
446 (1979) Israel
Calls upon Israel to scrupulously abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention regarding the responsibilities of occupying powers, to rescind previous measures that violate these relevant provisions, and "in particular, not to transport parts of its civilian population into the occupied Arab territories."
452 (1979) Israel
Calls on the government of Israel to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction, and planning of settlements in the Arab territories, occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem.
465 (1980) Israel
Reiterates previous resolutions on Israel's settlements policy.
471 (1980) Israel
Demands prosecution of those involved in assassination attempts of West Bank leaders and compensation for damages; reiterates demands to abide by Fourth Geneva Convention.
484 (1980) Israel
Reiterates request that Israel abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
487 (1981) Israel
Calls upon Israel to place its nuclear facilities under the safeguard of the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency.
497 (1981) Israel
Demands that Israel rescind its decision to impose its domestic laws in the occupied Syrian Golan region.
Calls on Israel to pay compensation for human and material losses from its attack against Tunisia and to refrain from all such attacks or threats of attacks against other nations.
592 (1986) Israel
Insists Israel abide by the Fourth Geneva Conventions in East Jerusalem and other occupied territories.
605 (1987) Israel
"Calls once more upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide immediately and scrupulously by the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Times of War, and to desist forthwith from its policies and practices that are in violations of the provisions of the Convention."
607 (1986) Israel
Reiterates calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention and to cease its practice of deportations from occupied Arab territories.
608 (1988) Israel
Reiterates call for Israel to cease its deportations.
636 (1989) Israel
Reiterates call for Israel to cease its deportations.
641 (1989) Israel
Reiterates previous resolutions calling on Israel to desist in its deportations.
672 (1990) Israel
Reiterates calls for Israel to abide by provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention in the occupied Arab territories.
673 (1990) Israel
Insists that Israel come into compliance with resolution 672.
681 (1990) Israel
Reiterates call on Israel to abide by Fourth Geneva Convention in the occupied Arab territories.
726 (1992) Israel
Reiterates calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention and to cease its practice of deportations from occupied Arab territories.
799 (1992) Israel
"Reaffirms applicability of Fourth Geneva Convention…to all Palestinian territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem, and affirms that deportation of civilians constitutes a contravention of its obligations under the Convention."
904 (1994) Israel
Calls upon Israel, as the occupying power, "to take and implement measures, inter alia, confiscation of arms, with the aim of preventing illegal acts of violence by settlers."
1073 (1996) Israel
"Calls on the safety and security of Palestinian civilians to be ensured."
1322 (2000) Israel
Calls upon Israel to scrupulously abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention regarding the responsibilities of occupying power
1402 (2002) Israel
Calls for Israel to withdraw from Palestinian cities.
1403 (2002) Israel
Demands that Israel go through with "the implementation of its resolution 1402, without delay."
1405 (2002) Israel
Calls for UN inspectors to investigate civilian deaths during an Israeli assault on the Jenin refugee camp.
1435 (2002) Israel
Calls on Israel to withdraw to positions of September 2000 and end its military activities in and around Ramallah, including the destruction of security and civilian infrastructure.
poor little Appeaser
by Irving
Wednesday, Aug. 04, 2004 at 7:27 PM
Is that the best an Arafat groupie can do, project it's utter failings as a human being by attacking Israel?
What a nice Nazi in training panties you are.
Appease whom?
by Go it alone?
Friday, Aug. 06, 2004 at 3:30 AM
I was just agreeing with you in regards to the toothless UN and it's policies of appeasing genocidal rogue dictatorships in the Middle East who possess weapons of mass destruction.
Just like an appeaser
by Go it alone
Monday, Aug. 09, 2004 at 4:59 AM
Irv,
Sorry about your pal Brother Lloyd.
I guess you've been a wee bit upset about that, which I guess is why you've been leaning on the photoshop (although they're probably just more unoriginal freeper 'art').
Why are you in favor of appeasing rogue nations who kill their own people and possess WMD's?
this one's for you
by going it alone
Friday, Sep. 03, 2004 at 10:50 PM
This is for you, you terrorist sympathizing raw sewage. Here's to smashing your faggot hippie skull in the street, you Collaborator.
WHEN THE KILLERS COME FOR THE KIDS
BY RALPH PETERS
September 4, 2004 -- THE mass murder of children revolts the human psyche. Herod sending his henchmen to massacre the infants of Bethlehem haunts the Gospels. Nothing in our time was crueler than what the Germans did to children during the Holocaust. Slaughtering the innocents violates a universal human taboo.
Or a nearly universal one. Those Muslims who preach Jihad against the West decided years ago that killing Jewish or Christian children is not only acceptable, but pleasing to their god when done by "martyrs."
It isn't politically correct to say this, of course. We're supposed to pretend that Islam is a "religion of peace." All right, then: It's time for Muslims to stand up for the once-noble, nearly lost traditions of their faith and condemn what Arab and Chechen terrorists and blasphemers did in the Russian town of Beslan.
If Muslim religious leaders around the world will not publicly condemn the taking of children as hostages and their subsequent slaughter — if those "men of faith" will not issue a condemnation without reservations or caveats — then no one need pretend any longer that all religions are equally sound and moral.
Islam has been a great and humane faith in the past. Now far too many of its adherents condone, actively or passively, the mass murder of school kids. Instead of condemnations of the Muslim "Jihadis" responsible for butchering more than 200 women and children in cold blood, we will hear spiteful counter-accusations about imaginary atrocities supposedly committed by Western militaries.
Well, the cold fact is that Western soldiers, whether Americans, Brits, Russians or Israelis, do not take hundreds of children hostage, then shoot them in cold blood while detonating bombs in their midst. The Muslim world can lie to itself, but we need lie no longer.
The tragedy in southern Russia occurred thousands of miles from the United States, but, in essence, that massacre happened next door. The parents, teachers and students kept for days without water or food in a sweltering school building before being butchered were our children, our sisters, our wives, our parents.
The mass hostage situation wasn't about Chechen rebels (and at least 10 Arabs) opposing the Russian government. It was a continuation of the universal struggle between good and evil. And there is no doubt which side is evil, scorned though the word may be by our own elite.
How can any human being with a shred of conscience dismiss what occurred in that school as anything less than evil?
The attack in Beslan wasn't about Russia's brutal incompetence in Chechnya — as counter-productive as Moscow's grim heavy-handedness may have been. It was about religious bigotry so profound that the believer can hold a gun to a child's head, pull the trigger and term the act "divine justice."
We will hear complaints that the Russian special forces should have waited — even after the terrorists began shooting children. Negotiations are the heroin of Westerners addicted to self-delusion. Who among us would have waited when he or she saw fleeing children cut down by automatic weapons? The urge to protect children is as primal as any impulse we ever feel.
Make no mistake: No blame attaches to the Russians for the massacre at that school. The guilt is entirely upon the Islamic extremists who have led the religion they claim to cherish into the realms of nightmare.
There will be repercussions. Having suffered the hijacking and destruction of two passenger jets, a deadly bombing at a Moscow subway station and a massacre in a primary school all in less than two weeks, the Kremlin will have learned to rue the day it imagined that there was anything to gain by opposing American efforts against terrorists, whether Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein.
As they inevitably do, the terrorists reminded the world of their heartless barbarism. Even if France manages to beg the release of its kidnapped journalists in Iraq, it has begun to sense its vulnerability. And all Europeans with a vestige of sense will recognize that the school seizure in Russia could easily repeat itself in Languedoc or Umbria, Bavaria or Kent.
An attack on children is an attack on all of humanity.
No matter what differences Western states discover to divide them, the terrorists will bring us together in the end. Their atrocities expose all wishful thinking for what it is.
A final thought: Did any of those protesters who came to Manhattan to denounce our liberation of 50 million Muslims stay an extra day to protest the massacre in Russia? Of course not.
The protesters no more care for dead Russian children than they care for dead Kurds or for the hundreds of thousands of Arabs that Saddam Hussein executed. Or for the ongoing Arab-Muslim slaughter of blacks in Sudan. Nothing's a crime to those protesters unless the deed was committed by America.
The butchery in Russia was a crime against humanity. In every respect. Was any war ever more necessary or just than the War on Terror?
And what will terror's apologists say when the killers come for their own children?
Ralph Peters is the author of "Beyond Terror: Strategy in a Changing World."
kill all A.N.S.W.E.R. monkeys
by pale sewageskin
Sunday, Sep. 05, 2004 at 11:13 AM
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/tm_objectid=14605550%26method=full%26siteid=106694%26headline=they%2dknifed%2dbabies%2d%2dthey%2draped%2dgirls-name_page.html
THEY KNIFED BABIES, THEY RAPED GIRLS
Sep 5 2004
SCHOOL SLAUGHTER: 323 DEAD, 434 HURT
By Euan Stretch Chief Reporter
THE full horror of the Russian school atrocity began to emerge yesterday as traumatised children told horrific tales of stabbed babies and brutal rapes.
It has also emerged that scores of the 323 who died - including many children - had been shot in the back.
While despairing soldiers and rescue workers moved among the growing pile of body bags, it was revealed that an 18-month-old baby had been repeatedly stabbed by a black-clad terrorist who had run out of ammunition.
Other survivors told how screaming teenage girls were dragged into rooms adjoining the gymnasium where they were being held and raped by their Chechen captors who chillingly made a video film of their appalling exploits
They said children were forced to drink their own urine and eat the petals off the flowers they had brought their teachers after nearly three days without food or water in the stifling hot gym.
Their stories came as Russian officials warned that the final death toll of the siege of Middle School No 1 at Beslan in North Ossetia - in which up to 1,200 people were held captive - was likely to be more than 400.
The official toll yesterday stood at 323 which included 156 children, 10 Russian soldiers and two emergency service workers - 35 of the hostage-takers were also killed. Last night 434 people were being treated in hospital with 247 children and 85 adults in a critical condition.
A Russian official said six seriously injured children had been taken to Moscow for treatment.
"One of them is a child, just 18 months old, with many knife wounds," he said.
The Chechen terrorists - including two so-called "Black Widows" - had been meticulously planning the hostage-taking for months.
High explosives and ammunition had been smuggled into the building during the summer by rebels disguised as workmen.
A shocking account of the siege has come from Indira Dzetskelova, the mother of 12-year-old Dzerase who was guarded by two women suicide bombers during the siege. She said: "On the first day they shot a man before my daughter's eyes. They frightened the kids by saying that water in the tap was poisoned.
"The famished children had to eat rose petals from bouquets which they specially bought for their teachers to mark the first day of term. Parents who were also captured had to feed their kids with all the window plants.
"After they ate all the petals, my daughter said that she started to nibble the rose plants.
"She told me that several 15-year-old girls were raped by terrorists. She heard their terrible cries and screams when those monsters took them away."
Her traumatised daughter Dzerase sobbed as she added: "When the assault started, some of us were running out through the school dining room.
"We had to run across and jump over dead bodies. Can I ever forget it? Is it possible that one day I will forget it?
"The terrorists started to shoot from the roof, then one of them ran into the dining room and started to shoot from the window.
"I saw kids and women falling to the ground. And I saw that vermin's face. I saw his smile as he killed my friends."
Diana Gadzhieva, 14, was held with her sister Akinba, aged 11. She told how the rebels executed all the adult men in a room upstairs and how she was forced to lie face down on the gym floor.
She said: "There was not enough space for us and we were lying on top of each other. The rebels needed paths to walk around the gym. They shouted they would shoot anyone whose arm or leg was across their paths.
"They also said they would kill anyone who looked up.
"We saw groups of men hostages going out and never coming back."
She also told of the moments when the bloody firefight started and how the rebels triggered a series of explosions inside the gym.
Diana said: "There was terrible panic and a few boys jumped out of the windows. My sister and I did not want to run out - we were scared of being shot.
"But then the second explosion happened and something heavy fell down on us. I saw children around me lying in blood and not moving.
"Just next to me there was a woman covered in blood. She was dead. I also saw many arms and legs, torn from bodies.
"All the bombs were connected with cords and started blowing up one after another, getting closer and closer to us.
"I took Alina's hand and we ran to the window and jumped out. We were running as quickly as possible - our backs were terribly hot from the fires."
Zalina Vazagova, 13, also told of the terrifying moment when a bomb exploded in the gym ceiling.
She explained: "I heard a terrible crack above my head and closed my eyes. When I opened them, I thought I was dead. There was so much blood around me.
"One granny was lying with a hole in her head. My PE teacher, Ivan Konstantinovich's body hit my leg.
"All the kids were crying, 'Please don't shoot! Please don't kill us'. But the rebels did not listen to us.
"Then I saw an open window and just jumped out. My little sister Lena was left inside there." And sobbing, she added: "I don't know if she's alive. She was only ten."
Survivors say the gymnasium and surrounding corridors had been rigged with at least 18 bombs, connected by cables and trip wires.
Two bombs were placed in the hoops of basketball nets and at either ends of the gymnasium.
A "Black Widow" is thought to have blown herself up in front of more than 1,000 hostages, prompting the deadly fire-fight and triggering a further serious of explosions inside the gymnasium.
At least three rebels were thought to have been captured alive in the school's basement - but were later said to have died.
One disguised herself as a teacher leading children to safety. She was apparently shot dead seconds before trying to blow herself up in a nearby hospital.
Another was apparently shot dead and beheaded by his comrades for trying to surrender.
_________________
WE HAD TO DRINK OUR URINE
HOSTAGE Sima Albegova told how the Chechen rebels became angry when they heard President Vladimir Putin was not visiting the school.
Sima, a school cook, said: "The terrorists treated the kids well during first day, they did let them drink and go to toilet.
"But right after they found out that Putin was not coming, they forbade the kids from going to the toilet.
"We asked them, 'Why are you doing this to us?' They said it was because we voted for Putin.
"And they said he doesn't care about you. He won't even come here to talk to us."
By Friday morning conditions were so bad that people could hardly breathe.
She added: "Most of kids were almost unconsciousness. Those who could move started to pee into shoes and then drink urine.
"They would make several sips of urine and then would stop and cry because their lips were chapped and the urine stung their skin.
"I would run to the terrorists and asked them to let kids drink.
"They said, 'Go away, they'll survive'. But so many of them have not."
_________________
MY LITTLE BOY WAS LEFT TO DIE
A YOUNG mother told how she was released early with her two-month-old daughter - but her five-year-old son was forced to stay.
Salimat Suleimanova said: "I begged them on my knees to let me take Shamil out with me, but they wouldn't - now I don't know where he is.
"It was his first day at school."
She is overwhelmed by guilt for coming out with her baby daughter.
"They didn't allow me to go back and say goodbye to my little boy," she said.
She added: "So many children lay unconscious without food and water. Occasionally the rebels took those out, poured water onto their heads and threw them back."
More Neo Con Fascist Scare Tactic
by Answer This
Sunday, Sep. 05, 2004 at 2:26 PM
One man's terorist is another man's freedom fighter. Russia has been oppressing and torturing Chechens for Centuries, just as the world and America have been oppressing and murdering without remorse Arab men women and children. You can read similar gruesome stories about the Isrealis...but that doesn't make the headline news at CNN.
you're raw sewage
by Irving
Tuesday, Sep. 07, 2004 at 8:23 PM
If anything ever happens here again, you ANSWER monkeys will be ground under our heels. That's not an empty threat - it's a promise, and believe me, I'm not the only one who feels this way. The days of hippie sewage giving invitations to raghead terrorists are over.
See you around, dead Moslem freak....
--------------------
Evil's true name
Herald Sun 8th September 2004
Andrew Bolt
We've been tip-toeing around the real nature of terrorism for far too long. The horror in Russia compels us to recognise the truth about this evil.
ENOUGH. Finally enough with the evasions and excuses -- the pretence that this had nothing to do with Islamism. No, the evil that turned a Russian school into a slaughterhouse is too great and too threatening for more such polite fictions.
Consider: the terrorists who seized the school in Beslan refused to give their 1100 hostages water -- not even children who after two days in stifling heat were unconscious from thirst.
Consider: one child, 10-year-old Stanislav Tsarakhov, said he'd seen a boy beg a terrorist for water, "but instead of giving him water he drove his bayonet through the boy's body".
Consider: when a teacher, Elza Viktorovna, pleaded for the terrorists to at least spare the children, she was asked, "Have you finished?", and when she nodded was shot dead.
Consider: when the terrorists exploded into their final orgy of bloodletting, they shot in the back many children who tried to flee.
Reporters described how one rescuer carried out a girl while trying frantically to keep her insides from spilling out of the hole blown in her back. They described, too, how one female terrorist wounded and then killed a father as he ran to the school to save his children.
Aveta Aylyarova, a grandmother, told how she tried to help children who made it to her house, and how a girl shot in the legs cried: "Help me, aunty, I'm dying."
And look now at the funerals -- like that of Sveta Aylyarova, just six, who was carried to her grave dressed in lace and with a pink teddy at her feet. "She was a beautiful, smart little girl," cried a relative, a man who could barely speak for grief.
We need to know the depravity of what was done in Beslan because we need to understand there is now moving in the world an ideology that spurs men to commit horrors beyond even our nightmares.
And we need to realise a movement that can plan and work such evil in Beslan knows no boundaries of any kind. What might such people be planning next, and where and with what weapons? Surely no one can be safe. No massacre is unimaginable.
But what have we seen in so much of the coverage of this carnage, in which more than 350 people were killed, nearly half of them children?
Once again we have seen toxic excuses and evasions of the kind the US had to endure after September 11, and that even we suffered after Bali.
First, there was the blaming of the devastated victims -- this time of Russia. What wickedness had Russia done, it was asked, to bring this on itself?
And then there was the pretence that these terrorists -- or, rather "rebels" or "militants" -- were not motivated at all by Islamism.
The European Union, typically, was very quick to treat Russia as the accused, demanding it explain "how the tragedy could have occurred", implying Russian soldiers were to blame.
The Council of Europe urged the world to gang up on Russia -- "to keep up the pressure for a resolution to the Chechen conflict" -- as if the child-murderers of Beslan were simply reacting to its undeniably harsh rule in Chechnya.
Much of the commentary, particularly from the Left, took up the same themes, just as the terrorists would have hoped. The terrorists were ritually deplored, of course, but it was the Russian President, Vladimir Putin, who, perversely, was put on trial.
"Toll rises as Putin admits fatal errors," cried the front-page lead of Monday's Age -- which described the terrorists as simply "Chechen militants" and nowhere mentioned the words "Islamic" or "Muslim".
Putin "faces his own questions", intoned host Kerry O'Brien on the 7.30 Report on Monday, calling the terrorists "Chechen rebels". Again, nowhere in his introduction or the moving report that followed was Islam mentioned.
Putin "now faces the most serious challenge of his presidency", declared SBS, which then had the Islamic Council of Victoria condemn Putin's actions in Chechnya.
It is astonishing how far some media outlets went to avoid even hinting that the terrorists were Muslim, let alone Islamist extremists.
On Monday, Channel 9's evening news showed a clip of one captured terrorist pleading for his life.
"I swear by Allah, I did not shoot. I swear by Allah, I did feel sorry for the children," he said in Russian. But Channel 9's English translation dropped all his references to Allah.
This was just a Chechen rebel, you see, not an Islamist terrorist. Russia to blame, Islamism not.
The trouble with that script starts with the fact that the Beslan hostages were being slaughtered even before Russian troops stormed the school.
Men and women had for days been hauled off by the terrorists into one classroom to be shot dead and flung from a window.
One man was shot in front of the children as a warning to shut up. Children were close to death from dehydration, while others were forced to drink urine to survive. And then the terrorists' bombs began to explode in the gym, crowded with women and children.
Don't blame the Russian soldiers for then rushing in to stop the massacre, losing a dozen of their own in their frantic attempts.
Nor is it at all clear yet that most of the terrorists were the "Chechen rebels" we've been told of so often.
Perhaps they will turn out to have been just that, even though the main Chechen rebel leader, the fugitive former Chechen "president" Aslan Maskhadov, denies it -- and even though many Chechens, given increasing autonomy by Putin, would rather be ruled by Russia than by such animals.
But there are also indications that at least some of the killers were not Chechen at all.
Russian officials have variously claimed -- without giving proof -- that the more than 30 terrorists who seized the Beslan school included 10 Arabs, as well as an African, Russian and Ossetian, and some Ingush, Chechens and Kazaks.
Journalists in Beslan have also said books in Arabic were later found in the ruins after the siege.
If true -- if -- this suggests the operation was by a group with far more on its mind than Chechen independence. Indeed, the one captured terrorist of Beslan, Nur-Pashi Kulayev, allegedly told interrogators his leader said the real aim was to "trigger a war throughout the Caucasus", far beyond tiny Chechnya.
And inside the school, according to 15-year-old hostage Yana Khayaba, a Muslim herself, "the terrorists talked to us about Islam and how Allah was the only one to kneel before".
Nor is it news that Islamist groups have sent fighters and money into the region.
Russia has long claimed al-Qaida has deep ties with the most lethal of the Chechen warlords, Shamil Basayev, who has become steadily more Islamist and more brutal, adopting the suicide attacks that are the hallmark of Muslim terrorists.
Chechnya, and neighbouring Russian lands, is now yet one more battlefield in the Islamist jihad that has killed so many civilians in so many countries -- from Australians in Bali to Masons in Turkey; from Nepalese cooks in Iraq, to Americans in offices in New York. And Muslims everywhere.
The fighters for this cause do not want simply independence for a scrap of Russia.
To call them "Chechen rebels", rather than Islamist terrorists, is to pretend they have limited demands that could be met. That they have a cause that has nothing to do with us.
No. Theirs is a corruption of Islam that demands the end of our civilisation, and of democracy in Muslim lands. Theirs is a bastard Islam that would rather kill than let live. That worships death, and licences the murder of children.
Too many of our commentators will not face this harsh fact. But a few moderate Muslims are, at last, speaking out against this fundamentalist threat to them, to their religion, and to the children of towns as far away as Beslan, or near.
"Most perpetrators of suicide operations in buses, schools and residential buildings around the world for the past 10 years have been Muslims," wrote Abdulrahman al-Rasheed, head of the Al-Arabiya TV channel, on Saturday.
In a bitter column in the pan-Arab newspaper Asharq Al-Awset, he added: "Our terrorist sons are an end-product of our corrupted culture."
The editor of the Kuwaiti daily Al-Siyassa, Ahmad Al-Jarallah, insisted Islamist extremism be fought by spreading democracy in Muslim countries such as Iraq, and defending it by force, with America's help: "Terrorism can be tackled only through war, and only the United States . . . is capable of handling such a war."
They understand this war -- but we surely won't if we keep misnaming our enemy.
So let's be clear. The men and women who shot children in the back in Beslan were not "Chechen rebels", "Chechen militants" or, as SBS put it, a "pro-Chechen commando group".
They were terrorists undoubtedly, and Islamist almost certainly. Some may have been Chechen, too, but that is not what made them so evil, or what makes their cause so lethal, even to us.
Neocon/Chechen Terror Links
by repost
Wednesday, Sep. 08, 2004 at 8:25 AM
The Chechens' American Friends
September 8, 2004
Guardian/UK
The Washington neocons' commitment to the war on terror evaporates in Chechnya, whose cause they have made their own
by John Laughland
An enormous head of steam has built up behind the view that President Putin is somehow the main culprit in the grisly events in North Ossetia. Soundbites and headlines such as "Grief turns to anger", "Harsh words for government", and "Criticism mounting against Putin" have abounded, while TV and radio correspondents in Beslan have been pressed on air to say that the people there blame Moscow as much as the terrorists. There have been numerous editorials encouraging us to understand - to quote the Sunday Times - the "underlying causes" of Chechen terrorism (usually Russian authoritarianism), while the widespread use of the word "rebels" to describe people who shoot children shows a surprising indulgence in the face of extreme brutality.
On closer inspection, it turns out that this so-called "mounting criticism" is in fact being driven by a specific group in the Russian political spectrum - and by its American supporters. The leading Russian critics of Putin's handling of the Beslan crisis are the pro-US politicians Boris Nemtsov and Vladimir Ryzhkov - men associated with the extreme neoliberal market reforms which so devastated the Russian economy under the west's beloved Boris Yeltsin - and the Carnegie Endowment's Moscow Center. Funded by its New York head office, this influential thinktank - which operates in tandem with the military-political Rand Corporation, for instance in producing policy papers on Russia's role in helping the US restructure the "Greater Middle East" - has been quoted repeatedly in recent days blaming Putin for the Chechen atrocities. The centre has also been assiduous over recent months in arguing against Moscow's claims that there is a link between the Chechens and al-Qaida.
These people peddle essentially the same line as that expressed by Chechen leaders themselves, such as Ahmed Zakaev, the London exile who wrote in these pages yesterday. Other prominent figures who use the Chechen rebellion as a stick with which to beat Putin include Boris Berezovsky, the Russian oligarch who, like Zakaev, was granted political asylum in this country, although the Russian authorities want him on numerous charges. Moscow has often accused Berezovsky of funding Chechen rebels in the past.
By the same token, the BBC and other media sources are putting it about that Russian TV played down the Beslan crisis, while only western channels reported live, the implication being that Putin's Russia remains a highly controlled police state. But this view of the Russian media is precisely the opposite of the impression I gained while watching both CNN and Russian TV over the past week: the Russian channels had far better information and images from Beslan than their western competitors. This harshness towards Putin is perhaps explained by the fact that, in the US, the leading group which pleads the Chechen cause is the American Committee for Peace in Chechnya (ACPC). The list of the self-styled "distinguished Americans" who are its members is a rollcall of the most prominent neoconservatives who so enthusastically support the "war on terror".
They include Richard Perle, the notorious Pentagon adviser; Elliott Abrams of Iran-Contra fame; Kenneth Adelman, the former US ambassador to the UN who egged on the invasion of Iraq by predicting it would be "a cakewalk"; Midge Decter, biographer of Donald Rumsfeld and a director of the rightwing Heritage Foundation; Frank Gaffney of the militarist Center for Security Policy; Bruce Jackson, former US military intelligence officer and one-time vice-president of Lockheed Martin, now president of the US Committee on NATO; Michael Ledeen of the American Enterprise Institute, a former admirer of Italian fascism and now a leading proponent of regime change in Iran; and R James Woolsey, the former CIA director who is one of the leading cheerleaders behind George Bush's plans to re-model the Muslim world along pro-US lines.
The ACPC heavily promotes the idea that the Chechen rebellion shows the undemocratic nature of Putin's Russia, and cultivates support for the Chechen cause by emphasizing the seriousness of human rights violations in the tiny Caucasian republic. It compares the Chechen crisis to those other fashionable "Muslim" causes, Bosnia and Kosovo - implying that only international intervention in the Caucasus can stabilize the situation there. In August, the ACPC welcomed the award of political asylum in the US, and a US-government funded grant, to Ilyas Akhmadov, foreign minister in the opposition Chechen government, and a man Moscow describes as a terrorist. Coming from both political parties, the ACPC members represent the backbone of the US foreign policy establishment, and their views are indeed those of the US administration.
Although the White House issued a condemnation of the Beslan hostage-takers, its official view remains that the Chechen conflict must be solved politically. According to ACPC member Charles Fairbanks of Johns Hopkins University, US pressure will now increase on Moscow to achieve a political, rather than military, solution - in other words to negotiate with terrorists, a policy the US resolutely rejects elsewhere.
Allegations are even being made in Russia that the west itself is somehow behind the Chechen rebellion, and that the purpose of such support is to weaken Russia, and to drive her out of the Caucasus. The fact that the Chechens are believed to use as a base the Pankisi gorge in neighboring Georgia - a country which aspires to join NATO, has an extremely pro-American government, and where the US already has a significant military presence - only encourages such speculation. Putin himself even seemed to lend credence to the idea in his interview with foreign journalists on Monday.
Proof of any such western involvement would be difficult to obtain, but is it any wonder Russians are asking themselves such questions when the same people in Washington who demand the deployment of overwhelming military force against the US's so-called terrorist enemies also insist that Russia capitulate to hers?
John Laughland is a trustee of the British Helsinki Human Rights Group http://www.oscewatch.org
© Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004
so what's your point?
by Irving
Friday, Sep. 17, 2004 at 2:54 AM
"Although the White House issued a condemnation of the Beslan hostage-takers, its official view remains that the Chechen conflict must be solved politically. According to ACPC member Charles Fairbanks of Johns Hopkins University, US pressure will now increase on Moscow to achieve a political, rather than military, solution - in other words to negotiate with terrorists, a policy the US resolutely rejects elsewhere."
A.N.S.W.E.R. sewage marches in the streets to symbolically give blowjobs to terrorists all the time. So is this supposed to be some sort of retort?
Point
by Lori Hann
Friday, Sep. 17, 2004 at 5:03 PM
If by point you mean some silly line about blowjobs, then no.
The Stalinist nitwits (Idon't know why you assume ther's some affection for ANSWER here, must be the freep telling you) may give symbolic blowjobs to terrorists, but the US gives real weapons and real money to terrorists. Ever heard of Saddam Hussein? Osama bin Laden? Ariel Sharon? WHISC? NYPD? All these terrorists and more terrorists have leeched off my paycheck.
Who know which terrorists they arming in Iraq as we speak.