community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
Aggresive Undercover M19
by .
Monday, Mar. 21, 2005 at 5:47 AM
Undercover cop.
Keep yourself safe in the streets.
Know your local undercovers. Point them out for the cowardly pigs that they are.
This one in particular was quite aggressive towards march participants during the rally when he was outed as a pig.
His mugshot is being distributed through town to help keep his victims safe.
Be on the lookout for more undercovers, and a simple checklist of ways you can help spot them and keep your community safe.
Er
by --
Thursday, Mar. 24, 2005 at 3:23 PM
Aside from the relatively unpleasing pic, got any real evidence why you think this guy's a cop?
My cop nose is a little stuffy...I just can't smell cop from the picture.
..
by ..
Friday, Mar. 25, 2005 at 8:54 AM
umm. he was with 3 other "guys" who were hanging around, not participating in the protest just watching people, then when people started talking to them the 3 threatened protesters then walked away to the line of police and hung out with them.
there is video and other pictures that pretty clearly show they are police.
Sounds like plainclothes
by ..
Saturday, Mar. 26, 2005 at 12:33 PM
I don't know if anyone really cares to know the distinction but judging by this description he is a plainclothes cop, not an undercover cop. An undercover cop attempts to pretend that he's something he's not- like a protester, or an activist- whereas a plainclothes cop just changes out of his usual gear into a pair of "street" clothes (often without changing his shiny shoes, or sometimes he'll go out and buy new shoes for the role, which remain a bit too clean) and stands around.
Plainclothes are far less worrying than true undercovers. But regardless of what it wears, a pig is still a pig.
.
by .
Monday, Mar. 28, 2005 at 6:51 AM
These pigs were definite undercovers.
One had a protest sign, others had small cameras or camera phones.
They were posing as protestors/participants/by standers, not just acting as plain clothes officers.
Furthermore, they were quite agitated and proceeded to threaten those of us that pointed out their identity to others. The pictured pig told one that he was a cop and would arrest and kick his as next time he saw him, and then separately told anotheer that he wasn't a cop and that he was going to kick his ass right there.
Some suspect they were undercover narcotics officers somehow acting in a different capacity for the march.
He's been outed. Just wait until the deals he's been setting up in his latest sting find out he's really a pig. Done and done.
REAL SMART
by *
Monday, Mar. 28, 2005 at 7:11 AM
Great. Now they can shut down IMC for endangering the welfare and safety of a police officer or interfering with an ongoing investigation. If the cop is subject to any harm as a result of the "outing" here on IMC, Matt Toups can plan on more legal problems. Thanks, A'hole.
.
by .
Monday, Mar. 28, 2005 at 7:40 AM
Maybe the oinker should have kept his cool, left his ZZ Top uniform at home, or chosen another profession. I have no simpaty for undercover's who's job is to lie and cheat their way to trust, only to turn around and throw someone up against the wall and in jail.
Not my problem he walked around all holier than thou.
Who's holier now, pig? Ever hear of information warfare? We can do it better.
Aggressive Undercover
by John
Monday, Mar. 28, 2005 at 11:31 AM
I did some checking with friends who have had experiences with undercovers. None of them knew this guy or had ever seen him. I think this smart ass was like the frat boys and tried to provoke us in front of the cops so we would be arrested. I never saw a pig pose for a photograph especially in front of his commrades. This guy don't look like an undercover pig. He looks like someone who was looking for trouble. If he was a pig, someone would have been arrested. Pigs don't go away empty handed even if they have to make up stuff to grab us for.
.
by .
Monday, Mar. 28, 2005 at 11:57 AM
umm. the man in question seemed part of a 3 man team that hung out with, talked to, and seemed to get "directed by" higher up police officials. When he left where he was he went over with his friends to where the rest of the uniformed police were. I'm not making a judgement on who he is, but I would find it quite odd if he was just hanging around to cause trouble. There were mabye 3 "packs" of similar men when people arrived at Pitt, and none of them, including the man in question, seemed comfortable being photographed.
.
by .
Monday, Mar. 28, 2005 at 11:59 AM
it's also worth adding that there were cameras all around during the interactions with the men in question. the police certainly seem to have no problem lying and grabbing people, but even they are not typically stupid enough to do it to people on the sidewalk on camera.
Aggressive Undercover
by John
Monday, Mar. 28, 2005 at 1:31 PM
Saw the picture of the suspicious people at Pitt. There's a no brainer. He has a radio on his side. With that said, isn't it time we get back to the subject at hand. I thought we were in Pittsburgh to protest a cause, that being the war in Iraq. I guess maybe next year instead of trying to get our view points out we should try to photograph all the suspicious people in the crowd, post them on our website to draw negative publicity, instead of drawing attention to the fact the numerous innocent victims are dying in Iraq everyday for no apparent reason. Who cares about the suspicious people in the crowd, no one got arrested. We win, cops loose. Know that's get to the important issues and act like adults. We're getting as bad as the pigs.
aggressive undercover
by donna
Tuesday, Mar. 29, 2005 at 5:54 AM
donnakielek@yahoo.com 412-826-9322
I agree with the last person. We kind of got off the real subject and who really cares about the pigs and what there up to. We need to get back to the real tradgies of the war and bush getting our people back.
Related issues
by &
Tuesday, Mar. 29, 2005 at 9:32 AM
Let me get this straight, you aren't concerned with the pigs who are gonna rip families and communities apart, who will lie, coherse, arrest, beat whomever they please? WTF?, police brutality, police repression are byproducts of the war and dissent against Amerikkka. Have you heard of cointelpro?, do you have any idea why Copwatch was started? The police are a group of armed thugs.
Maybe you should do a google search on both subjects before you start suggesting to ignore the police and the tactics of the state.
I guess we should have ignored the future hummer driving, date rapists @ the CMU frat house as well, eh?
If you choose to ignore these problems they will not go away, they will only intensify.
Aggressive Cop
by John
Tuesday, Mar. 29, 2005 at 10:50 AM
I agree with the comments relative to the cops to a certain degree, however, I've been protesting since the 1960's. I've been arrested in numerous cities. Never fought with the pigs nor caused any damage. Didn't get beat and made my point. Never, ever, ever did I hide behind a mask to conceal my identity. Because we didn't hide, the cops didn't hide either. I think the younger generation has gotten away from protesting a certain cause and are just looking for reasons to commit random acts of violence. That is not protesting. I guess my point is, unless you saw something I didn't, no one was arrested in Pittsburgh, nor did things get out of hand. I really don't care about a pig that was in the crowd. If there was a problem with these "suspicious people" I could understand your anger. We are now hiding behind masks, why I don't understand, even our photograhs show that. I am a "True Protestor" that has a purpose for protesting and am proud of my actions. I want people to see me and my children protesting. I don't engage in damaging other people's property. I am expecting a strong retort from you because I really don't condone your actions other than "True Protesting". Grow up. Be proud of what you're doing and why you're doing it. Don't destroy other innocent people's property because you can and hide behind the rest of us "True Protestors". Be a person and quit your immature actions. You are a reflection of me, and right now, I am not happy with the picture you are painting of us. I have nothing to hide.
...
by ...
Tuesday, Mar. 29, 2005 at 1:08 PM
John,
If you have nothing to hide, why don’t you say your full name, maybe add your address, email, and phone number. I mean, if you have nothing to fear why hide?
Your post is incorrect on a number of points and you seem to have a lot of ageist views (many younger folks are admittedly guilty of this as well).
You state that because “we didn’t hide, the police didn’t hide either”, are you actually trying to claim this as a generalization of the 60’s/early 70’s protester/police experience? I am aware of a number of situations where the police didn’t wear badges, covered them up, or otherwise sought to obscure who they were. Protests not hiding didn’t stop the police from beating and in some cases killing them.
Beyond that fact, even if protesters and police both were “identifiable” so what? That does not mean their wasn’t/isn’t an incredible power differential between the two groups. I hope you’re not naïve enough to believe that there is anything such as an impartial law. Your take on police/protester dynamics seems to be that there is a direct correlation between the actions of protesters and that of the police, nothing could be further from the truth.
You state, “I think the younger generation has gotten away from protesting a certain cause and are just looking for reasons to commit random acts of violence.” That is an incredibly ill informed and ageist statement. First off, what is your definition of violence because I’m sure we don’t agree on that? Second, considering you seem to be comparing this “younger” generation to the older one you are part of that protested “a certain cause” in the 60’s, you might want to take some time to educate yourself on just what type of tactics and strategy groups in the 60’s and 70’s employed. The militancy and confrontational nature of 50’s/60’s/70’s movements and events far exceeds anything we’ve witnessed in the Seattle 99-now era. More “violence” probably took place in any year from 65-72 than in the last 6 years combined. What’s most interesting is that the statement your making now is very similar to the rhetoric that was employed against the movements you were apart of. From claiming that King was inciting violence (which from a certain perspective he was) to drug filled hippies rioting for the sake of rioting oppositional forces have always sought to claim that those challenging institutional power structures were doing it for no reason at all. It’s a nice deflection to avoid talking about: the issues behind the protests, the message of those you’re trying to discrediting, and the ineffectiveness of those employing less confrontational means.
The purpose of the gathering information on the police is that it acts as a deterrent against violent behavior on their part. These “individuals” did threaten violence against people at the event. Others knowing to watch out for them in the future IS a safety issue.
“I guess my point is, unless you saw something I didn't, no one was arrested in Pittsburgh, nor did things get out of hand. I really don't care about a pig that was in the crowd. If there was a problem with these "suspicious people" I could understand your anger.”
You seem to completely miss the point of the varied reasons people wear masks and the fact that wearing masks, from a tactical perspective, is most advantageous to discourage police violence and to effectively respond in the case of it. You should care which pigs are in the crowd because it effects how things will turn out. Certain officers have serious anger issues and will attack people if they are able.
So why do people wear masks,
1: To reduce the negative effects of chemical weapons. A bandanna or mask over your face and nose partially filters you from inhaling pepper-spray and tear gas. Additionally soaking a mask with apple cider vinager or lemon juice offers almost complete respitory protection from the chemical weapons usually deployed by police in the US.
2: To avoid the harassment and risks that being identified by the police can result in
History has shown time and time again that the state and those in power will go to the extremes to stop the growth of progressive social movements. They will use violence, illegally target and imprison, and even in some cases attempt to murder those they deem as threats to the status quo. From the earliest use of photographic surveillance against the suffragists in England the state has sought to catalogue known “radicals/dissidents/protesters”. Once they know the identities of organizers and participants it becomes exponentially easier for them to engage in other types of surveillance and disruption. Identifying, and subsequent cataloguing of protesters is a necessary first step in any disruption program. The sad fact is that there are no reliable safe guards in place to stop the police from using the information they gather about who you are in nefarious ways. People who become “known” to the police are often visited by the police before actions at home or workplaces (such as happened to the house on Belan street before march 20th in 2004), and often end up being harassed on the street or elsewhere. The less privilege you hold in society the greater your risks of harassment and abuse at the hands of the state and it’s agents. We continue to see these patterns of abuse with the 2,100 spy files Denver police collected on activists in that city, the Pittsburgh police assigning of plainclothes officers to follow around POG organizers on March 20th 2003, targeted arrests, and the continued use of Co-intelpro(http://www.thetalkingdrum.com/cointelpro.html#his) style covert programs around the country.
3: Many people see masking up as a right to privacy issue
We all draw the line at different places when it comes to the information we’re willing to let the government, or unknown individuals, know about us. The issue for people who mask up isn’t whether to show their face or not, it’s how the police can use the pictures they take. For example, how many of you would be willing to tell the police, counter-protesters, or other hostile people your name? What about your social security number or your home address? Many people who mask up note, incredulously, that those who are critical of people wearing masks are not willing to divulge this type of personal information. This is because critics don’t realize that unlike showing your face to the public, revealing your identity to the police is allowing them easier access to more personal information about you.
4: They don’t feel they can risk being seen by family or fellow workers
Some people can only participate in demonstrations with masks because of the job or family situation they have. Not everyone can risk a boss or parent seeing them on TV. The counter argument to this is often that people should be willing to stand up and risk the consequences if they feel strongly about something. Not only does this fly in the face of the first amendments rights people are supposed to possess, but also it ignores the fact that different people have different amounts, of differing types, of privilege. No one should suffer repercussions for speaking out and individuals need to be supported when they take the protective actions they deem necessary
5: To avoid being singled out by the police because of perceived race, gender, immigration status, or other characteristics.
Masks, especially when used as part of a black bloc (where protesters are wearing the same color face covering and black clothes, while attempting to stay together) make it significantly more difficult for the police to target people based on age, race, gender, perceived immigration status, and other "characteristics". Police often arbitarily choose to attack and or arrest those they deem as most vulnerable and least able to resist either the arrest itself, or the ensuing court fight after the fact.
6: Anonymity in the case of direct action:
Most people don’t go to protests to get arrested. Few feel that getting arrested, in and of itself, accomplishes much, whereas going to jail for potentially long periods of time can have a very detrimental effect on people and the movement overall. Instead of focusing on organizing, the movement has to devote large amounts of energy towards jail support and other forms of legal defense. In cases where the point of an action is to symbolically get arrested people rarely wear masks. There are however, many cases where people are willing to risk arrest if necessary. The Seattle WTO protests where people created human and other types of barricades to shut down the meetings are a good example of direct action that risked, but didn’t necessitate arrest. Covering your face might not prevent the police from arresting people on the spot, but it will make it more difficult to identify and arrest people after actions. We are living in an age where the might of corporate power and the state are increasingly joining together to destroy all opposition to their rule. With disproportionate jail sentences being given to “enemies” of the state who engage in clearly non-violent actions masks can be an asset to making sure individuals are free to struggle another day.
7: Tactical solidarity and response in the case of police attack:
Because there tends to be a greater amount of tactical affinity between those wearing bandannas (and especially within black blocs) these groups often try to stay together and are often in a better situation to withstand police attack or attempts at targeted arrests. Whether the police are “legally” or “illegally” attacking and beating people it’s easier to stick together through linking arms, un-arresting people, etc.
8: Solidarity with others!
Some people choose to wear masks as a show of solidarity with those doing so for one of the reasons listed above. Black masks are also often worn as a show of solidarity with the Zapatistas.
As you can see it's pretty dumb to make generalizations about why people wear masks or who they are. Those wearing masks on the 19th included a number of people over 35 and a lot of people who've been "protesting a cause" for quite a many year.
Back to what you were saying-
Saying things such as “grow up” is ageist and immature. Please try to avoid this.
“Be proud of what you're doing and why you're doing it.”
People are….
If you want to have a serious discussion about tactics I'm more than willing but you're going to need to educate yourself first and then address things from a tactical/effectivness standpoint. Being reactionary is not helpful to the movement.
insinuating ageism
by old man, take a look at my life
Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2005 at 2:05 AM
Making EVERY STATEMENT by someone in the protest movement who is older than you out to be nostalgia for the 60's is ageist. That is the problem with all of you ageist whipper-snappers. Maybe you ought to try being more open minded ;)
.
by .
Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2005 at 6:11 AM
Masks.
No matter if I choose to wear one or not, there is a great piece of wisdom out there from a wise Pittsburgh sage in response to the mask question.
"Why do you close the curtain when you vote?"
Some of us vote in the streets rather than in a church basement.
...
by ...
Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2005 at 6:26 AM
John, who I was replying to, specifically mentioned protesting since the 60's and set up a spurious dichtomony between the motivations and validity of the actions taken by older and younger generations.
get over yourself
by shelly
Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2005 at 9:28 AM
You need to get over yourself and your holier than thou attitude. Maybe you should worry about your so called "cause" and concern yourself w/that. If the police are there and want to watch you, then prove them wrong and act like an adult.....not an idiot. Quit being so paranoid. And if it is the cause you are concerned about get out there and positively spread the word with nothing to hide. Maybe you have a lot to hide and want to turn it around on the police.
Ageist
by Lisa
Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2005 at 9:36 AM
Maybe you need to grow up and get over your ageist. You just rattle on and on about yourself NOT the CAUSE. Get back to basics....get your word out there w/o violence and if you have nothing to hide, then dont hide your face and act like a responsible adult.
.
by .
Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2005 at 9:36 AM
concern yourself with social change and you inevitably have to concern yourself with the police. why? because they choose to concern themselves with you.
anyone who knows the least bit about previous progressive social movements realizes that the state and institutional power structures are going to come after you. programs like co-intel-pro and the like are not paranoia of the left, they are documented instances of state efforts to attack and destroy the left through whatever means the state feels are necessary.
Ageist and maturity
by Lisa
Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2005 at 9:37 AM
Maybe you need to grow up and get over your ageist. You just rattle on and on about yourself NOT the CAUSE. Get back to basics....get your word out there w/o violence and if you have nothing to hide, then dont hide your face and act like a responsible adult.
Ageist and maturity
by Lisa
Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2005 at 9:38 AM
Maybe you need to grow up and get over your ageist. You just rattle on and on about yourself NOT the CAUSE. Get back to basics....get your word out there w/o violence and if you have nothing to hide, then dont hide your face and act like a responsible adult. IF you are doing NOTHING wrong than who cares if someone is watching, police or just interested bystanders. Get over yourself already.
.
by .
Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2005 at 9:38 AM
Lisa, Shelly, John.
Answer the question: Why do you close the curtain when you vote?
NO sense voting
by Amy
Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2005 at 9:40 AM
That makes absolutely no sense. If you want your vote to count, get out there and do it legitamitely. That basement and church crap is exactly that. CRAP!
...
by ...
Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2005 at 9:43 AM
There have been many fruitful and rational discussions about masks, tactics, etc here on indymedia in the past. These discussions have also taken place within many local activist organizations, including the groups that organize the larger events such as M19. People have genuine differences of opinion, but they are not going to get worked out through posts that seem to serve the sole purpose of being divisive and putting people down. If you honestly want to have a dialogue (requires you honestly are interested in changing how others think) I'd suggest you try to post in a less inflamatory way. Telling people they're stupid or childish or whatever will doing nothing but cause people to be even more convinved that you are not guinine in your disagreement with them, but are solely trying to create divisions within the movement.
Aggressive cop
by John
Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2005 at 12:52 PM
Wow. Really got people thinking. Haven't had a chance to sit down and respond to your documentary. I have a job and support my family. Anyway, let me respond the way you have in sequence:
Give you my personal information so that you can what? Bring the rest of your Anarchist to my home and destroy my property for no certain cause other than I disagree with your methods and have angered you. I don't want to start name calling, but you're an immature, spoiled little baby that is looking for a way to destroy property and get away with it.
As for my training and experience, you obviously read about Seattle in a history book. I was there. I went to jail. Not because I wanted to destroy porperty, but because I got caught up in your rederick and got snatched up.
I was at the world bank conference in Washington in April of 2000. I attended "Basic Direct Action Training" by the Rukus Society. I'm a little rusty, but I remeber them teaching me something about making sure my cause was clearly visible so that when I drew the media attenition they would know why I was there. I was proud of my cause and had it written on my T-shirt. I was not dressed in black as you and your commrades are. Were is your cause printed?
I attended "Blockade Training" given by Kathy Berry of the Rukus Society. If I remember correctly, she was a famous protestor while you were probably still sucking a bottle. She also taught me to "lock down" but for a purpose and to display my cause. Your's would be? Wearing black I guess. She also taught me why to wear a mask and told me to pull it up when the cops were about to spray me with tear gas or whatever they use now. It was not to mask my identity.
I participated in jail solidarity with other "true protestors". I've seen people deficate on the floor and wipe it on themselves to prevent the police from identifying them. Have you done that?
I appreciate the "true protestors" out there who have spoken there piece relative to this issue. I have attempted to refrain from the name calling as it serves no purpose other than to aggitate. I don't want to aggitate you but merely point out to you that although you hide behind the rest of us "true protestors" you are nothing more than a spoiled child who gets his or her jollies at the expense and destruction of other people's property. That is not protesting.
I should alos mention that during the Pittsburgh protest, I saw the Frat boys attmept to provoke you. How did you retaliate? Did you let them know why you were protesting? Did you tell them about the innocent lives being lost everyday? No. I watched your kind, all dressed in black and wearing masks stick a knife into a vehicles tire causing damage to an innocent person. So here you are telling me of protesting because the war is bad and you stab a tire. Big man, or woman. At least I tell you my name.
I will not stoop to your level and respond to anything else you have said. If it weren't for the people like you, I guess the suspicious people wouldn't be in the crowd with us. I don't fear the cops. As a matter of fact, I thought they went to a lot of trouble to provide us security.
By the way, did you see that television show last night were the cops were murder and they linked it back to a website like this that identified people as cops? The website personnel were charges with some form of murder. I hope that doesn't happen here.
Thanks again for allowing me to voice my opinion of you and your attempts to identify suspicious people and your protest methods. To you "true protestors" I apologize for these immature Anarchist.
As for identifying myself, again, I don't believe in violence, and, hold on to your hat, have actually protested against.
Have a great day.
.
by .
Wednesday, Mar. 30, 2005 at 1:19 PM
John, you have quite the imagination.
...
by ...
Thursday, Mar. 31, 2005 at 6:40 AM
John,
I would advise you to seek help immidiately. You have a very serious imagination problem.
---
by ----
Thursday, Mar. 31, 2005 at 7:18 AM
John, It seems you missed the point entirely of me asking you for personal info. It's a nice delusion you have, but I have no interest in coming to your house or hurting you or your family if you have one. You did nicely make my point for me though, which is that the same reason you don't want people on this board to know who you are is why some people don't want the police to know who they are. The difference between the cases being that with the police there is a well documented history to support this worry and you either simply have some irrational fears and thoughts of self importance or are not who you say you are and are posting here to create divisions (which seems far more likely). Additionally the police and state have far more incentive, motivation, and power to go after people than a bunch of anarchists who (if you're actually genuine) consider themselves on the same side as you. I think you're a liar but it's not a big deal. My purpose in posting here is that my responses to the ridiculousness of what you say can be helpful for others who are reading this but may not have a lot of info with these debates. I use you to make points I think are important. I believe no matter how many fake posts you make or stories you concoct or difference people you pretend to be that others will see through them and think more about these types of things which is in the end beneficial to the movement.
Were you in Seattle? When and where were you arrested there? I have serious doubts as to your story. For one, police violence started way before any type of property destruction so I'm not sure how you're able to blame that for the police response. Secondly, the vast vast majority of people arrested were either arrested for deliberate acts of civil disobedience where they intended to get arrested or they were rounded up in groups and mass arrested which took place (in all cases I'm aware of) seperate from any instances of Property Damage.
Clearly there are differences of opinion within the movement but they are not as severe as John would like people to believe, they do get discussed within groups, and they are getting worked out. The Pittsburgh activist movement has a great deal of solidarity between groups and tendencies which can be traced directly to the acceptance of a diversity of tactics and a respect for the fact that people who take action, while we may not always agree with them, have thier own sets of values and politics that they are trying to act on for the good of humanity. Generalizing, demonizing, and making up reasons for why people do what they do isn't conducive to movement building and can only work to the detriment of all of us,
The reasons people wear masks have already been clearly stated above as have what happened in the incident that is the point of the post. Doesn't seem to be anymore need to respond to claims about this subject.
*********
by Lee
Thursday, Mar. 31, 2005 at 11:00 AM
Have you not stopped to consider if you are so important and such a threat to the police that they havent already figured out exactly who you are and where you live, and you are still walking around being an idiot?! Did you ever stop to realize they are probably alot smarter than you!
hjol
by jkl
Thursday, Mar. 31, 2005 at 11:12 AM
Lee/Whoever you really are, I think everyone realizes the police know who many people are. Christ, Denver had what? 3,100 spy files on everyone from anarchists to the Quakers. That doesn't mean the state is omnipotent. They are dumb a lot just like the rest of us. I really can't see how your question/post makes any sense given what has already been posted on the variety of reasons people wear masks. Perhaps you should go re-read that.
Personally, the police already know who I am and where I live. That's something that often comes with the territory with progressive social change. I didn't post the initial pictures and I'm merely trying to respond to attacks and distortions people are making because I believe those reading these discussion might gain something from them.
May I interupt your arguement?
by C.
Thursday, Mar. 31, 2005 at 1:17 PM
If I may:
Talking about the differences past and present of protest movements is great, but why does everyone get so damn touchy? It seems like half way through sanity goes out the window, and everyone starts ripping each other apart like hyenas (sorry if that is "animalist").
If we keep tearing into each other at every damned little indescretion, we will remain exactly where we are: nowhere, and loosing fast.
Thank you; You may resume your current arguement.
undercover police = secret police , that's why it's scary
by friend
Thursday, Mar. 31, 2005 at 11:11 PM
I think the biggest problem most folks have with undercover police being in a protest is that many chldren learn in school that what separates America from Socialist countries is that there is no secret police watching over you.
Then we learn that there are "free speech zones" and secret police watching over you while you excercise your right to assembly.
It is same thing, different economic system. Only a more unjust one.
Oh and Cuba doesn't have death penalty. USSR ended GULAG FIFTY YEARS AGO.
US has private prison labor companies. Go figure.
Protesting in Pittsburgh was a surprise for me because I was excercising my rights and here I have secret police looking at me. It was a shock I had never recognized secret police at protests in other cities.
A couple of extra points...
by Danny P
Friday, Apr. 01, 2005 at 8:08 AM
Didn't want to weigh in on this because comments are well suited for updates, not for debates, but, well, I can't resist.
First, the poster above mentioned many excellent reasons why people choose to wear masks. To just elaborate on the "solidarity" reason, if anyone has any of the above apply to them, then their wearing a mask is only successful if others in the crowd do it as well. Being just one or two people wearing a mask makes you stick out, it doesn't let you hide. So wearing a mask can help make room in the protest for people that, for whatever reason, are afraid to participate otherwise.
It should also be noted that today we are all videotaped and the videotape is often sold to the Department of Homeland Security. It is also well known that law enforcement has very precise facial recognition software, which I suspect is capable of looking at protest video and creating a list of names of people who were there. This did not happen in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.
Finally, being able to live without being in fear of the cops is a privilege that not everyone in this society has. Fear of the cops is real, especially in the minority and poor communities where the police can be most oppressive. I don't need to rattle off the list of unarmed people (and children) killed by Pittsburgh police; needless to say, it's far too many, I'm sure any reader of Pittsburgh Indymedia is well aware of the cases.
If we want to make a trust or even a lack of fear for the police a prerequisite for protest, then the end result is to further limit potential involvement from many poor or black communities in the movement. Needless to say, I'd find that unacceptable. I hope you would too.
AGGRESIVE UNDERWEAR AT M19
by Undercover Lover
Friday, Apr. 01, 2005 at 12:13 PM
Keep yourself safe out there.
Know your underwear. Point it out for the rest of us to see.
This one in particular was quite aggressive towards march participants during the rally when he was outed.
His mugshot is being distributed through town to help keep his victims safe.
Be on the lookout for more underwear, and a simple checklist of ways you can help spot them and keep your community safe.
Stop breaking the Law
by Elisabeth
Saturday, May. 14, 2005 at 12:10 PM
If you weren't breaking the law you wouldn't be worried about UC's. Get a life. Police are only doing their jobs. If you get that man killed because of false accusations God help you.
![[masthead]](/images/masthead_140.png)